Vertical lines?

[D A V I D]

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Dear all, after returning a 240 and happily having exchanged against this M9 (also a bit less expensive and upgraded to P), I was able to determine the service history and this bad boy just (Summer 2020) comes out of a sensor cleaning service in Germany. So all good me thinks, no risks. I start shooting.

The following are two photos taken tonight with a 35 mm VC (casual portrait of my daughter) and a 50mm Zeiss (the marantz). I cropped in to show the vertical lines.

Do I need to return this camera as well or am I panicking for nothing? 🙂 

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Edited January 16, 2021 by D A V I D

[D A V I D]

Oh, just found out I am not the only one.... case closed. Camera goes back. 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[boojum]

Is your sensor a new, non-corroding sensor?

[D A V I D]

Yes, it was changed 2016 and confirmed to be the newest one. 

[boojum]

11 hours ago, D A V I D said:

Yes, it was changed 2016 and confirmed to be the newest one. 

I am sorry for you and your bad luck.  And for me as I am thinking of buying an M-9 because of the CCD sensor.  Electronics seem to be a weakness in this line.  Damned shame.

I just checked Wikipedia on CCD's and they state that CCD is superior in image quality to CMOS.  Check out their opinions here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device

Anyway, if I buy the M-9 I will be checking for hairline failures in the sensor straightaway. The camera is now in the hands of a known, reputable source so I am pretty sure it is fine and if I find a fault it will be handled promptly and responsibly.

[Kamiel]

Hi David,

Unfortunately I had the exact same issue with my M9 (also with the replaced sensor) in 2019. The higher the ISO the clearer the vertical red line became visible. I had to send it back to Leica. It was repaired and since then the problem did not reappear. 

Best of luck!

[M9reno]

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Just a harmless dead pixel - quickly fixable at Wetzlar.  I had one last year on an MM1 - the kind of thing you would never notice until you do.

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by M9reno

[Stuart Richardson]

It is not corrosion. As M9reno said, while annoying, this is not a major problem. One pixel is malfunctioning (you can usually see one looks brighter than the rest within this line), and due to the sensor architecture, it causes a malfunction that makes the entire line of pixels on the same readout brighter than normal. The fix is basically turning off the pixel and telling the camera to map that pixel to a neighboring pixel. Once it is done, you will never tell the difference. You should call Leica Customer Service and see what they need for you to fix it. Occasionally this can be done remotely, but I think usually it is done by sending the camera in.

[D A V I D]

Dear all, great to have that kind of feedback. "The higher the ISO the clearer the vertical red line became visible.": Yes, that's the same. It needs a repair though, it's very well visible once you know it's there 😉 Any ideas on repair price? As this is a second hand camera (of course) from a Leica dealer in Brussels, I(ll bring it back to the dealer (warranty 1 year). So not a big deal. However, it confirms that paying the premium on buying second hand on warranty from a dealer has its advantages. 

[Kamiel]

Hi David,

It is very good to know that your camera is still under warranty. I just looked it up for you. I paid €521 for the repair. I was however very pleased with the repair because they also did an extra inspection to see if all was in perfect working order.

Best regards.

[M9reno]

Mine was fixed for free under the dealer’s second-hand warranty.  It just had to take a trip to Wetzlar and back, and took a month or maybe two there, early last year.

[Jean-Michel]

Save time, just add a tiny bit of nose grease to the neg in the darkroom. 😃

[Ko.Fe.]

On 1/17/2021 at 10:10 PM, boojum said:

Electronics seem to be a weakness in this line. 

Have you checked faults reports in M10 sub-forum?

[boojum]

24 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Have you checked faults reports in M10 sub-forum?

No.  Should I?  If they have more problems that is awful.  Stable, reliable camera electronics are a fact.  I have old Japanese cameras which work fine, like a Pentax K1000 and Pentax ME Super plus some old Sony digitals.  I hope the M10's are not faulty but I now must check. Spaceba.

[LeicaR10]

David,  Stuart Richardson's post #8 is spot on.  I had the same issue years ago with the M240 and Leica remapped the pixels for me.  Easy fix, just annoying and does not happen often.

Boojum,  I use M10s in very harsh climates and rough terrain for my business and I can say, the cameras are the very reliable.  IMO, the M cameras reliability have improved significantly over the years. I have to say without reservation, the M10s for me, are real work horses that have never let me down.  The same goes for the S3 camera.  Both systems take a licking and keep on clicking.   r/ Mark

Edited January 19, 2021 by LeicaR10

[adan]

Just to make sure the situation is clear (so you can make an informed choice).

This problem does not need a physical repair or replacement (which is a good thing, since there are no longer any replacement CCDs for M9s. Zero. Production line closed a year ago).

Leica will simply provide new, custom firmware specifically for your camera, that will "ignore" the faulty pixel or column, and "patch" it with interpolated data from the neighboring pixels or columns.

It may even be possible (or so I have heard tell) to simply send Leica an original .DNG file, via email, showing the fault, and they can send you back the firmware update as a .zip file, for you to install yourself (someone else can probably confirm or deny that). More or less - column 2451, delete and overwrite with average of columns 2450 and 2452).

Really not much more complicated than automated "dust detection and removal."

Up to you of course, whether to stick with this camera and get the fix - or wait to try and find another M9-P that meets all your other needs and doesn't have any lines.

Frankly, these line defects tend to occur on any silicon sensor over time - which is why Leica offers the firmware fix technique in the first place. No matter what camera you get, "hot" lines will appear at some age or other.

It is like - no matter how new and perfect a car you get, you will have to get new tires sometime.

Edited January 19, 2021 by adan

[boojum]

4 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

David,  Stuart Richardson's post #8 is spot on.  I had the same issue years ago with the M240 and Leica remapped the pixels for me.  Easy fix, just annoying and does not happen often.

Boojum,  I use M10s in very harsh climates and rough terrain for my business and I can say, the cameras are the very reliable.  IMO, the M cameras reliability have improved significantly over the years. I have to say without reservation, the M10s for me, are real work horses that have never let me down.  The same goes for the S3 camera.  Both systems take a licking and keep on clicking.   r/ Mark

It's a moot point.  I am getting an M9 but am disappointed by what I perceive as an unnecessarily high electronic failure rate in digital Leicas.  I know there are many deniers/defenders but a camera with the reputation and price tag of a Leica ought to be damned near bullet-proof. Really, at this altitude kludges are strenglich verboten.  That said, the M8.2 and M240 I have had for the past few months have worked.  I expect that. But lets not tarry with this bent any longer.  I'll just monitor the complaints of failures.

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, boojum said:

I am getting an M9 but am disappointed by what I perceive as an unnecessarily high electronic failure

What you need to remember is those of us with no problems don't post that news, whereas some come here and their first post is about their 'problem'. I still have a M9 from new (sensor replaced under warranty with new type) and have had zero other problems. Same with M(240), now sold, and M10 - zero problems so far.

Edited January 19, 2021 by pedaes

[M9reno]

I would hardly class a dead pixel as an electronic failure, and I’m confessedly about as anal and obsessive as they come.

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[Ko.Fe.]

12 hours ago, boojum said:

No.  Should I?  If they have more problems that is awful.  Stable, reliable camera electronics are a fact.  I have old Japanese cameras which work fine, like a Pentax K1000 and Pentax ME Super plus some old Sony digitals.  I hope the M10's are not faulty but I now must check. Spaceba.

I checked, few weeks ago. First four pages, back then, were with faults reports. Not any different from M9 sub-forum, if not worse.  I never seen anything like this on Canon DSLRs forum. 

But those are not Leica. And Leica is not even Olympus, where you could map out dead pixels by DIY. I'm holding to my 220 M-E and if it will need update, I'll get something from M240 series.  M10 price, quality issues are not for my pocket.