MD 262 + 50 summilux or an M10-D

[brunner]

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb pippy:

Back in the mid-to-late 1970s I started to learn how to play (electric) guitar. My first guitar was an entry-level model (as one might expect) but it was certainly OK for a beginner and so for a few years things were going fine. Then, for Xmas 1980, I treated myself to a 'proper' instrument; a well-used 1964 Fender Strat. All of a sudden I felt as if the standard of my playing was letting the guitar down as it wasn't as good as the guitar deserved. Also as it was such a pleasure to play I found no difficulty in putting in many hours' worth of practice every day. The result was that my playing skills improved very rapidly.

There's a lot to be said for the sheer sense of Feeling Good which one might get simply from using good quality kit and, in turn, this can end up being be reflected in the end-results achieved.

Philip.

Completely agree. Good post!

[Guest Nowhereman]

On 1/12/2021 at 7:19 PM, evikne said:

Personally, I probably will not buy any of them, but rather wait for a future M11-D or something. I am happy with my M10 and cannot afford a new camera for a long time yet...

Good reason. I think that current digital cameras are good enough to stay away from consumerism and the type of continuous upgrade path that was almost necessary in the earlier days of digital cameras; in that it's better for one's photography to stay with one camera longer and avoid having to keep on learning how to shoot with new cameras and process their files.

This is one of the reasons I have not been interested in replacing my M10 by the M10-R or M10-M. A future M11 could tempt me if it could render highlights more like negative film does, so that, when shooting into the light or with strong sidelight, you don't have to underexpose (expose to for the highlights) and lift shadows as much as you have to with the M10. However, my feeling is that Leica could achieve much of this by an M10 firmware upgrade — by applying a different curve to the DNG files that would distributes the available dynamic range more evenly between highlights and shadows: currently more of the DR goes to the shadows than to the highlights. This would produce a lower contrast, flatter, file. For people who want SOOC images, Leica could provide JPGs like those of the Ricoh GR III (like "Hi-Contrast B&W" and "Positive Film"), which are highly adjustable in-camera. 

A bit off topic, but to put all this into context, consider that Daido Moriyama — who regularly, exhibits large prints of 150x100cm (60x40 inches) — currently shoots, according to Japanese websites, with the Nikon Coolpix, a discontinued P&S camera with a 1/ 2.3 inch sensor, 16 MP,  a 25-500mm EFOV zoom lens that produces only JPGs. Here is a quote from a January 2021 article on a Japanese website: I once interviewed Daido Moriyama about the Ricoh GR. The last thing he said to me was "Akagi-san, when you meet someone from Ricoh, tell them to put a zoom lens on the GR". I asked him, "What? When I asked him why he said with a wry smile, "Because a zoom lens is convenient." Well, there was no way I could argue with a legend of the photography world...By the way, Daido Moriyama's favorite camera now is the COOLPIX S7000. If you are interested in it, please look it up (laugh).
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

 

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[plaidshirts]

On 2/8/2021 at 3:41 PM, Steven said:

What are the features that bother you so much ? 
 

For me the M-D is perfect for what it was designed to be - a digitalized M2 (my favorite Leica body). So it's not a question of features that irritate, but of them not being necessary at all.

On 2/12/2021 at 2:41 AM, Nowhereman said:

...

A bit off topic, but to put all this into context, consider that Daido Moriyama — who regularly, exhibits large prints of 150x100cm (60x40 inches) — currently shoots, according to Japanese websites, with the Nikon Coolpix, a discontinued P&S camera with a 1/ 2.3 inch sensor, 16 MP,  a 25-500mm EFOV zoom lens that produces only JPGs. Here is a quote from a January 2021 article on a Japanese website: I once interviewed Daido Moriyama about the Ricoh GR. The last thing he said to me was "Akagi-san, when you meet someone from Ricoh, tell them to put a zoom lens on the GR". I asked him, "What? When I asked him why he said with a wry smile, "Because a zoom lens is convenient." Well, there was no way I could argue with a legend of the photography world...By the way, Daido Moriyama's favorite camera now is the COOLPIX S7000. If you are interested in it, please look it up (laugh).
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook...

 

It's funny we get so caught up in gear idolatry that we sometimes forget the ultimate goal is to take meaningful photos. Thank you for the story.

[pippy]

4 hours ago, plaidshirts said:

For me the M-D is perfect for what it was designed to be - a digitalized M2 (my favorite Leica body). So it's not a question of features that irritate, but of them not being necessary at all...

Absolutely exactly the same feeling here. I bought my M2 around 1979 / 80 and the M-D 262 is its Digital Twin with the convenience of TTL metering thrown-in.

Philip.

[Steven]

9 hours ago, plaidshirts said:

For me the M-D is perfect for what it was designed to be - a digitalized M2 (my favorite Leica body). So it's not a question of features that irritate, but of them not being necessary at all.

It's funny we get so caught up in gear idolatry that we sometimes forget the ultimate goal is to take meaningful photos. Thank you for the story.

I understand there are some features you find unnecessary and didn’t need. But now that they’re there, surely you could just ignore them and focus and appreciate the new improved sensor ? Not mentioning the better form factor ? You’re not forced to install the iPhone app. 

[plaidshirts]

2 minutes ago, Steven said:

I understand there are some features you find unnecessary and didn’t need. But now that they’re there, surely you could just ignore them and focus and appreciate the new improved sensor ? Not mentioning the better form factor ? You’re not forced to install the iPhone app. 

Yes of course. I could just get an M10 and ignore the screen too (which you’ll hear a lot in these types of debates).
But I don’t see any reason to pay more for what I’m not going to to need or use. Especially as the technology now is at a level far surpassing my ability to fully utilize it. By that, I mean whatever shots I’m taking will not be improved by the latest and greatest upgrades.

Your iPhone analogy is an appropriate one. I still use an IPhone 7 because, well, it still works fine and I simply don’t need a bigger screen, a faster processor, nor a better camera. As long as I can see and reply to this Leica forum with it, I’m set 😜. 

[Steven]

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1 hour ago, plaidshirts said:

Yes of course. I could just get an M10 and ignore the screen too (which you’ll hear a lot in these types of debates).
But I don’t see any reason to pay more for what I’m not going to to need or use. Especially as the technology now is at a level far surpassing my ability to fully utilize it. By that, I mean whatever shots I’m taking will not be improved by the latest and greatest upgrades.

Your iPhone analogy is an appropriate one. I still use an IPhone 7 because, well, it still works fine and I simply don’t need a bigger screen, a faster processor, nor a better camera. As long as I can see and reply to this Leica forum with it, I’m set 😜. 

Alright, I’m not arguing, because everyone does what they want. 
But I do think that the newer sensor, at least, is worth the upgrade. It makes shooting at night more realistic, just to being with. 
 

Have a nice weekend. 

[martinot]

17 hours ago, plaidshirts said:

Yes of course. I could just get an M10 and ignore the screen too (which you’ll hear a lot in these types of debates).

That is exactly what I do and prefer. I simply just turn it off.

Works perfectly for me, but each to his own. I can understand that you can not hide that black screen and fool anyone into thinking it is a Leica film body (or like Steven, if he feels it is in his way for his fingers or grip).

Edited February 14, 2021 by martinot

[Murdog]

13 minutes ago, martinot said:

That is exactly what I do and prefer. I simply just turn it off.

Works perfectly for me, but each to his own. I can understand that you can not hide that black screen and fool anyone into thinking it is a Leica film body (or like Steven, if he feels it is in his way for his fingers or grip).

It's not just about looks or grip. It's the experience. Using it for street photography keeps you completely engaged, no distractions, or temptations. Getting home to "develop" your SD card and see what you got.

It being my only digital camera, shooting mostly film leica, it's that experience I want to retain. It's very different than just turning off the screen

[martinot]

2 hours ago, Murdog said:

It's not just about looks or grip. It's the experience. Using it for street photography keeps you completely engaged, no distractions, or temptations. Getting home to "develop" your SD card and see what you got.

It being my only digital camera, shooting mostly film leica, it's that experience I want to retain. It's very different than just turning off the screen

I do not see the difference, but that is OK. The best thing is that you are happy with yours (and me with mine). That is the only thing that counts.

[pippy]

2 hours ago, martinot said:

I do not see the difference, but that is OK. The best thing is that you are happy with yours (and me with mine). That is the only thing that counts.

With the greatest respect, martinot, have you ever had the chance to shoot with an M-D Typ-262 for any appreciable period of time? If not, and if you are anywhere within reach of London, I would be delighted to set you loose with my example for a day (or two if you have anywhere to crash in these Level 5 times) so you can enjoy the experience for yourself.

Send me a PM if you fancy trying it out.

Philip.

Edited February 14, 2021 by pippy

[M2Pete]

 

On 2/14/2021 at 2:41 PM, pippy said:

With the greatest respect, martinot, have you ever had the chance to shoot with an M-D Typ-262 for any appreciable period of time?

I have to 2nd this.

I was an avid Fuji user and always shot in RAW with the screen off to effect the feel of shooting digitally my M2 but there was always something missing. Fuji X rangefinderesqe cameras are a joy to shoot with, the ergonomics are very akin to an analog camera, the IQ is wonderful and when the X-Pro3 was released I thought my dream came true but.... I ended up selling all my Fuji stuff (but a body and tele-lens for birding) for the M-D 262.

The screen is always there to review one's shots, immediately or at a later date prior to getting them on your computer. Unless one has more patience than I (and admittedly most do 🙃) one ends up peeking. With the M-D one cannot do that no matter how much they want to, get the urge to. The photographer is FORCED to wait for the results, one must wait until they have loaded your S-D card up to a computer (another reason the Typ 262 beats the M10-D regarding "old -school" processing concept IMHO) just like waiting to see what you have achieved with your film camera/Leica, in my case an M2.

Since getting my hands on my M-D I've gradually shot fewer shots per outing and concentrated on getting things right the first time round. That is akin to how I used to shoot with my M2 and film bodies and enjoyed the whole process of photography, shot to development. I finally feel I am as close to enjoying photography again as I have not since the novelty of shooting digitally wore off several years ago.

Plus I get to satisfy my impatience seeing my photos  sooner than I did with film; the messy darkroom work, the sore wrist from agitation, the worry about timing and am I endangering the earth with chemical waste, or paying the lab to get it done.

As a lazy penny pincher that suits me fine.

Just my 2 cents worth, but covering a screen is not the equivalent of having no screen at all. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by M2Pete

[a.noctilux]

I don't waste my time anymore for arguing on screenless M-D or meterless M-A.

I tried for some time, but this is hopeless as the only way to "know/appreciate" is to try out.

People who think that screenless digital or meterless film M are (whatever they are or not ) would never try out, so ...

Same thing for Monochrom M 😉.

 

Arnaud, happy user of M-A, M-D, Monochroms.

[newtoleica]

On 1/12/2021 at 7:42 PM, evikne said:

I very much want an M10-D (have an M10 today). The main reason is that I dislike the feeling of the glass screen on the back. I feel in a way it doesn't belong there. Just to feel the leather cover under my thumb would be great! I also love the fold-out thumb rest and the engraving on top.

Spot on - its all about haptics. The camera is nicer to hold, has better grip and looks nicer. If you don't want the screen and don't use it, it just feels ugly and out of place.

[newtoleica]

Well I've been shooting pretty much only film on Olympus OM gear for the past 5 years. I have a darkroom and process B&W and print it with an enlarger. I process E6 and C41 at home and scan. I do use a digital camera as well, and recently got a Q2 to use instead of my Sony A7R. That led me back into Leica M (which I'd had previously). I got a used M10P and thought it was lovely but spoiled by the screen on the back. Last month I was able to sell on the P and get a 10D locally in London for the same price. I love the 10D. It feels just like a film camera and has no more than needed. The wifi etc is helpful in setting up but then can be kept off. It will be a very long term keeper.

[Steven]

I'm getting near a crossroad regarding my M10D experience. I have had it for 6 weeks now, and although it's a mesmerising camera, I do not know if I am going to keep it in the near future. 

The first thing that drew me to the M10D was because of the way it made me look in front of others. Like a cool, vintage film photographer. I am now passed that. But the look of it is still what makes me want to keep it the most. Except now I don't care about the way it looks to others, but the way it looks to me. It is simply BEAUTIFUL. It is such a gorgeous object that I want to touch it and use it all the time. It makes my M10P looks like a sony camera in comparison to its beauty. It's so gorgeous that I bring it to the diner table, just so I can have diner next to it before bringing it back to my room. Where it sleeps next to me on the bed side table. 

Regarding the screen less experience, I do like it too. But the truth is that in the past 6 weeks ive realised that I am just a better photographer with a screen. I like to put my M10P in live mode to look for composition that I could not get while looking through an OVF. And I like to be able to review my picture after taking it to see if it was good or if I can improve it. For this reason, I have not been able to look at my M10D as a pro tool for the moment, but rather, as Hughs Brownstone phrased it so wall, I look at it as an objet de désir. 

I could afford to keep both financially, but not mentally. Eventually I ill have to chose one. It comes down to pleasure of photographing vs results. For now, the screen as a little edge

[jdlaing]

It was just a matter of time..............

[Steven]

Just now, jdlaing said:

It was just a matter of time..............

What was a matter of time ? 

[pippy]

Great point to have reached, Steven.

All you need to do now is either understand how to REALLY use a camera or go back to Point'n'Shoot stuff.

Both are wonderful approaches.

Philip.

EDIT : You are extremely talented; that's understood. Believe in what you already understand and the M-10-D will become your Best Friend.

Edited February 28, 2021 by pippy

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[goorackerelite]

pastidip the back screen or superglue on a mini chalkboard if you're truly mental enough