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IanS_?

Monochrom 246 & Fuji X-Pro2 raw direct examples

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I appreciate this may be a bit of a stretch, but here goes anyway

I am trying to justify (to myself first) that a 246 Monochrom will create images with wider tonal range and separation than a Fuji X-Pro2 with ACROS b&w simulation.

I realise the quality of the lens makes a difference but the Fuji lenses are no slouches.

I have found a number of 246 dng files that I have downloaded and edited but its very difficult to know whether the camera is providing the benefit or the lighting was different.

Does anybody know of any direct raw equivalents shot at the same time using an equivalent lens.

I am sold on the leica + manual focus but dont want to spend 4K + on a 246 and lens only to feel the image quality isn't there. I do know that I can try manual focusing on the Fuji with an adapter and fuji lens.

Don't get me wrong I am not expecting image quality that is 5 times better.

Thanks for any help

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There will be essential difference between a native monochrome sensor and a Bayer-filtered or X-trans sensor - significantly higher resolution/acuity because of lack of interpolation and filter and more differentiated tonal range. But you will be missing the colour filter simulations - you will need the real thing. I can assure you that the quality will be there - and beyond your expectation. But don't expect to be able to recover highlights.

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I'm enthusiastic user of ...M (typ 246) as well as the former Monochrom.

My only opinion is they have the best (for me of course) outputs in monochrome files that need little work.

In most case, I use colored filter to tweek overall contrast, this b&w mindset took me a while but very pleasing when mastered.

Don't ask me why, but when I convert color files in mono (from M240/M10 with color channels), I can NOT achieve the same.

So the best is to try it by yourself.

 

Ian,

Is the Xpro2 Acros b&w simulation output in RAW ?

In jpeg no ?

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I have both cameras and would be willing to do some test shots tomorrow for you.  Sorry to hurt your wallet, but the 246 handily bests the xpro2.  It’s the most unique sensor I’ve ever used.  I am not knocking the Fuji at all, I keep it for where I feel it’s strengths are. It’s a fun little workhorse, but the 246 is so nice. Also, Fuji raw is not acros. I will shoot acros jpg mode if that’s what you would like. 

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You can't replicate the b&w sensor with a conversion from colour and you can't replicate b&w film with a b&w sensor. They are different. Besides that, you have a monochrom workflow with the b&w sensor. For some that is the real difference, more than the end result.

In the end, no one can tell you, if the investment is a step forward for you. Are you happy with your b&w results from your camera? When you compare it with images from the monochrome here or on flickr, do you see a gap in quality?

I thought the Acros simulation is a jpg-preset only and does not work for raw images.

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3 hours ago, Ccoppola82 said:

I have both cameras and would be willing to do some test shots tomorrow for you.  Sorry to hurt your wallet, but the 246 handily bests the xpro2.  It’s the most unique sensor I’ve ever used.  I am not knocking the Fuji at all, I keep it for where I feel it’s strengths are. It’s a fun little workhorse, but the 246 is so nice. Also, Fuji raw is not acros. I will shoot acros jpg mode if that’s what you would like. 

That would be really appreciated. If you can expose for the highlights as is recommended for the 246 I can then check that my post processing skills can extract an image that then I can compare to the x-pro2.

Thanks

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1 hour ago, tom.w.bn said:

You can't replicate the b&w sensor with a conversion from colour and you can't replicate b&w film with a b&w sensor. They are different. Besides that, you have a monochrom workflow with the b&w sensor. For some that is the real difference, more than the end result.

In the end, no one can tell you, if the investment is a step forward for you. Are you happy with your b&w results from your camera? When you compare it with images from the monochrome here or on flickr, do you see a gap in quality?

I thought the Acros simulation is a jpg-preset only and does not work for raw images.

Thanks for the reply

Acros is a jpg preset that the camera applies to the raw file. But you can develop the fuji raw files after the image is taken in camera and apply retrospective edits such as tones and push / pull. It can also be applied in Lightroom (although there is so debate how accurate the Lightroom implementations of the presets are).

I mentioned Fuji ACROS as it gives some context of my current workflow and expectations.

I 100% understand that you cant replicate film and b&w sensors, its the end result I am interested in.

Generally I'm never quite happy and always looking for an opportunity to improve things. That how I started with a Nikon D100 and ended up with three Fujis including a GFX-50r & lenses. More and more I am enjoying capturing b&w images and perfecting the home printing process (but that's another expensive story !)

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4 hours ago, IanS_? said:

That would be really appreciated. If you can expose for the highlights as is recommended for the 246 I can then check that my post processing skills can extract an image that then I can compare to the x-pro2.

Thanks

Sure thing. I’ll use a 50 Cron and 35 Fuji Cron. 

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb IanS_?:

...

I mentioned Fuji ACROS as it gives some context of my current workflow and expectations.

...

Generally I'm never quite happy and always looking for an opportunity to improve things. ...

Did you try Silver Efex Pro? Before you buy a new camera you could probably try the "gold standard" in b&w conversion.

 

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I haven't used the Fuji camera, but I have compared the output of other color cameras to the monochrom.  

Any monochrom variant can produce a technically superior black and white file, all else being equal (eg. 240 v 246 or M10R v M10M).

But that doesn't necessarily mean a better photograph.  

I don't claim to have ever made a single good photograph in my entire life, but looking at the work of others, it's just not about the camera or sensor or film.

So, in my opinion, the answer to your question depends on what you are after - a technically good file or an aesthetically good image.

Best to use a camera that will inspire you.

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13 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

Did you try Silver Efex Pro? Before you buy a new camera you could probably try the "gold standard" in b&w conversion.

 

Indeed I have, been using it for many years. I sometimes use it for the conversions from the Fuji raw and sometimes I select ACROS in lightroom and adjust to taste. Often I will do both and choose the one I prefer. To give you an idea where I am at, attached are three images from a recent trip out (these are from a GFX-50R)

Technical and artistic CC appreciated 

 

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Hi there! I will share my 2 cents in this occasion: I’ve been a long time user in the past of X-Pro2 Fuji cameras and after some time I fully migrated to Leica gear exclusively. I’m using a Q + M10 Monochrom combo nowadays so I can give you my opinion: Don’t expect photographic miracles when it comes to any of this gear, which are at the end of the day TOOLS. Now, having said that because I feel it’s always important to remember, I can tell you that Leica M cameras will give you the most connected unique experience in the capturing process and potentially outstanding results. I shoot professionally with them and I will tell you that the Monochrom is probably the most challenging camera to use and at the same time the most amazing if you dare to tame it. It will require you to go above and beyond your current skills, at all levels both technically and visually, but it’s the best possible tool if it fits the kind of photography you make and if you look for this more “handcrafted” approach let’s say... I can already tell you that M lenses are the best fit but I have other 3rd party which work fine as well, so take that into account economically... I’ve had beautiful B&W done with my Fuji X-Pro2 (check out my web for examples www.sergiocasadofoto.com ) but the Leica Monochrom (M10M in my case) is something else, to me is the closest your can get to the true film experience (which will never be the same) just knowing that exposing for highlights is a must, more than ever with this special camera. Anyway, sorry for the long answer, I hope it helped, here’s a recent example if you want to see how the M10M handles in real event, in this case a concert: Concert Example M10 Monochrome

I used Leica Q + M10 Monochrom with 50 Lux Aspherical 

Good luck!

Sergio

Edited by sergiomarried

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb sergiomarried:

Hi there! I will share my 2 cents in this occasion: I’ve been a long time user in the past of X-Pro2 Fuji cameras and after some time I fully migrated to Leica gear exclusively. I’m using a Q + M10 Monochrom combo nowadays so I can give you my opinion: Don’t expect photographic miracles when it comes to any of this gear, which are at the end of the day TOOLS. Now, having said that because I feel it’s always important to remember, I can tell you that Leica M cameras will give you the most connected unique experience in the capturing process and potentially outstanding results. I shoot professionally with them and I will tell you that the Monochrom is probably the most challenging camera to use and at the same time the most amazing if you dare to tame it. It will require you to go above and beyond your current skills, at all levels both technically and visually, but it’s the best possible tool if it fits the kind of photography you make and if you look for this more “handcrafted” approach let’s say... I can already tell you that M lenses are the best fit but I have other 3rd party which work fine as well, so take that into account economically... I’ve had beautiful B&W done with my Fuji X-Pro2 (check out my web for examples www.sergiocasadofoto.com ) but the Leica Monochrom (M10M in my case) is something else, to me is the closest your can get to the true film experience (which will never be the same) just knowing that exposing for highlights is a must, more than ever with this special camera. Anyway, sorry for the long answer, I hope it helped, here’s a recent example if you want to see how the M10M handles in real event, in this case a concert: Concert Example M10 Monochrome

I used Leica Q + M10 Monochrom with 50 Lux Aspherical 

Good luck!

Sergio

Great photos Sergio!

Congratulations

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I’m trying to get a day where there is decent contrast so I can show the dynamic range of both systems. It’s been total grey overcast days in western New York. Hopefully tomorrow or the next I can do some adequate comparison for you. 

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3 hours ago, Ccoppola82 said:

I’m trying to get a day where there is decent contrast so I can show the dynamic range of both systems. It’s been total grey overcast days in western New York. Hopefully tomorrow or the next I can do some adequate comparison for you. 

Understood and thanks

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ok i have a few boring test shots with as much dynamic range as I could.  I'll give you my impressions and you can look for yourself as some of this is always going to be subjective.  I shot everything at ISO 320 because that is the base ISO on the 246.  I used an early 50mm summicron(II) rigid + yellow filter.  The lens is naturally lower contrast than modern lenses so I generally use a yellow on it.  The fuji is the 35mm f2 and the JPG is acros+Y.  Thinking about it, I should have done it with no filter on either but this is generally how I shoot.  They were shot at the same aperture but the shutter was adjusted to compensate for the yellow filter.  I did notice that despite being what should be identical exposures, the Fuji tended to underexpose SLIGHTLY.

  So, my impressions

1.  The fuji is awesome, but higher contrast which to ME limits the file.  I tend to like low contrast images because I can manipulate them in lightroom.  The fuji was faster to crush blacks.  Its a much lighter system and has 2 memory card slots if that is important to you.

2.  The 246 is one of the cleanest High ISO cameras Ive ever used.  The final shot at 3200 shows a pretty hefty difference.  The fuji to me falls apart after 3200 with grain, but the 246 could keep on going.  The 246 has a much higher abundance of midtones that I can push either way I like.  Ive found this to be true even on more modern lenses.  I could run another comparison between a 35 Lux FLE against the fuji 23 1.4.  

 

Im not at work currently, so if you want I can do the 35mm test.  Just let me know. 

 

Xpro2 on top, 246 on bottom

 

 

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On 12/30/2020 at 3:19 AM, sergiomarried said:

Hi there! I will share my 2 cents in this occasion: I’ve been a long time user in the past of X-Pro2 Fuji cameras and after some time I fully migrated to Leica gear exclusively. I’m using a Q + M10 Monochrom combo nowadays so I can give you my opinion: Don’t expect photographic miracles when it comes to any of this gear, which are at the end of the day TOOLS. Now, having said that because I feel it’s always important to remember, I can tell you that Leica M cameras will give you the most connected unique experience in the capturing process and potentially outstanding results. I shoot professionally with them and I will tell you that the Monochrom is probably the most challenging camera to use and at the same time the most amazing if you dare to tame it. It will require you to go above and beyond your current skills, at all levels both technically and visually, but it’s the best possible tool if it fits the kind of photography you make and if you look for this more “handcrafted” approach let’s say... I can already tell you that M lenses are the best fit but I have other 3rd party which work fine as well, so take that into account economically... I’ve had beautiful B&W done with my Fuji X-Pro2 (check out my web for examples www.sergiocasadofoto.com ) but the Leica Monochrom (M10M in my case) is something else, to me is the closest your can get to the true film experience (which will never be the same) just knowing that exposing for highlights is a must, more than ever with this special camera. Anyway, sorry for the long answer, I hope it helped, here’s a recent example if you want to see how the M10M handles in real event, in this case a concert: Concert Example M10 Monochrome

I used Leica Q + M10 Monochrom with 50 Lux Aspherical 

Good luck!

Sergio

Beautiful photography!

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Am 27.12.2020 um 18:40 schrieb IanS_?:

I appreciate this may be a bit of a stretch, but here goes anyway

I am trying to justify (to myself first) that a 246 Monochrom will create images with wider tonal range and separation than a Fuji X-Pro2 with ACROS b&w simulation.

I realise the quality of the lens makes a difference but the Fuji lenses are no slouches.

I have found a number of 246 dng files that I have downloaded and edited but its very difficult to know whether the camera is providing the benefit or the lighting was different.

Does anybody know of any direct raw equivalents shot at the same time using an equivalent lens.

I am sold on the leica + manual focus but dont want to spend 4K + on a 246 and lens only to feel the image quality isn't there. I do know that I can try manual focusing on the Fuji with an adapter and fuji lens.

Don't get me wrong I am not expecting image quality that is 5 times better.

Thanks for any help

If you really want B&W pictures, take an analog medium format camera (Fuji GA645 series) and shoot with film. Or the M-Monochrome, the first version.

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