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Upgrading from an X2


Tortuga

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My main camera is an M240, with a Summicron 35mm ASPH. As a backup, and for those occasions where I want to travel light I have an X2. Lately I’ve been thinking of upgrading the X2, but all options I see are suboptimal:

• CL + Elmarit TL 18mm: good size and weight, but too wide

• CL + Summicron-TL 23mm: good weight, slightly too big, more expensive 

• Q2: great lens, crops to 35mm-e, 30MP, APS-C, but heavy, big (almost the same size as the M), even more expensive 

• Q: cheapest option, great lens, but crops to 35mm-e, 15MP, APS-C, heavy and big

I visited the Leica Store in my city to handle the Q2 and the CL. Unfortunately, I forgot to bring a card to examine images in detail later.

I have a couple of questions about the CL:

1. In the store, after handling the Q2, the shutter noise of the CL seemed very loud, like an M8. How is it in practice?

2. I’ve read complaints about the top wheels turning inadvertently when they brush against clothing. It must be serious enough if there is an option to block them in software. Is it that bad?

3. I remember Peter Karbe saying that for APS-C they needed to increase lens performance by 50%  to keep up with full frame lenses. How do M lenses on the CL compare to TL lenses?

Thanks!

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CL plus electronic shutter is silent. M lenses on CL work wonderfully. If you do upgrade, don't part with your X2. Nothing comes close to replacing it, from a size point of view. It will fit a jacket or cargo pocket; your alternatives will not.

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The Q/Q2 shutters are leaf shutters, so exceptionally quiet for mechanical shutters. I use the CL a lot, but I don't find the shutter noise disturbing. I haven't used a M8, but I owned an M9 and its shutter noise was one reason I was glad to get rid of it. I am sensitive to such things as I do quite a bit of photography of classical music recitals, where any noise is unacceptable, so that is where I use the electronic shutter (and on the SL).

I haven't often used M lenses on the CL, though I have used the Apo-Summicron-M 50 Asph and the Summilux-M 35 FLE. Both were excellent, as you'd expect, but I find the Summilux-TL 35 equally gorgeous, if not more so. Generally, though, I use TL lenses (and occasionally SL primes) on the CL. I prefer AF most of the time, though my eyesight is fine for MF if it is needed (e.g. macro, or tripod work). I have the 60TL and the two smaller TL zooms, and don't miss the M lenses at all.

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My favorite lens on the CL is the 23, a very nice lens at 35mm which is what I use the most. If the 23 is still too wide I would look at a pre asph 35mm Summilux or Summicron, that is a very pocketable set. A 50mm equivelent is not my style, my 35 stays on an M3. I have never felt the 23 is too big, but I have no experience with the X2. I also like that I can use my eclectic set of lenses with the CL. The shutter is OK for me, not nearly as loud as my M8 closer to the M3. 

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I might add you could also look at the new trio of lenses from Sigma, which are fast, light and seemingly offer good image quality. I have the 56mm f1.4 and have taken that out with no other lens on a number of occasions. It’s not small per se, but a lighter option possibly. 

The light compact option might be the Leica DL-7.

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6 hours ago, Tortuga said:

My main camera is an M240, with a Summicron 35mm ASPH. As a backup, and for those occasions where I want to travel light I have an X2. Lately I’ve been thinking of upgrading the X2, but all options I see are suboptimal:

• CL + Elmarit TL 18mm: good size and weight, but too wide

• CL + Summicron-TL 23mm: good weight, slightly too big, more expensive 

• Q2: great lens, crops to 35mm-e, 30MP, APS-C, but heavy, big (almost the same size as the M), even more expensive 

• Q: cheapest option, great lens, but crops to 35mm-e, 15MP, APS-C, heavy and big

I visited the Leica Store in my city to handle the Q2 and the CL. Unfortunately, I forgot to bring a card to examine images in detail later.

I have a couple of questions about the CL:

1. In the store, after handling the Q2, the shutter noise of the CL seemed very loud, like an M8. How is it in practice?

Electronic shutter is completely silent

2. I’ve read complaints about the top wheels turning inadvertently when they brush against clothing. It must be serious enough if there is an option to block them in software. Is it that bad?

Over the years, and my camera is pleasantly worn, they have not done so a single time.

3. I remember Peter Karbe saying that for APS-C they needed to increase lens performance by 50%  to keep up with full frame lenses. How do M lenses on the CL compare to TL lenses?

As good as it gets; the APS sensor only uses the optimal center part.

Thanks!

 

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M8 is way louder than CL. I almost never use electronic shutter. I like the sound. Never bother anybody. Even in street photos 

Some M lenses are on par or better than TL ones. 
Some M lenses are inferior than TL ones on CL.
So it depends. Which one you get. But I won’t really bother about that. The beauty of CL is to be able to play with everything : TL, M, R, SL, Sigma DC DN, DG DN, DG Art and Lumix S certified or not by Leica. 
So enjoy it. 
 

Never have any problem about wheels turning inadvertently. But if it is a concern, just use Leica Thumb rest. It will solve the problem instantly. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

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By the way Q/Q2 35mm crop is not APS-C size. 
It is bigger than M8 1.33x crop

Q2 crops with equivalent light flux :     
28mm f/1.7 - 47MP 1.00x.   
35mm f/2.0 - 30MP 1.25x.   
50mm f/2.8 - 15MP 1.79x.  
75mm f/4.5 - 07MP 2.69x

 

Q2 crops mode are awesome. It makes TL 18, 23, 18-56mm irrelevant. 
And almost TL 35mm irrelevant too. 
 

CL+TL light flux :   
11-23mm : 17-35mm f/5.0-6.3.  
18mm : 28mm f/4.0.  
23mm : 35mm f/2.8 (only f/4.0 under 1m)       
18-56mm : 28-85mm f/5.0-8.0
35mm : 50mm f/2.0.  

60mm : 90mm f/4.0
55-135mm : 85-200mm f/5.0-6.3

I really think that CL and Q2 are made for each other. Totally complimentary. Same exact UI, perfect to be used side by side. 
 

But I think that today CL + every Sigma DC DN are even better than Q or Q2   Their light flux
16mm : 24mm f/2.0    
30mm : 45mm f/2.0    
56mm : 85mm f/2.0

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Thanks for all the replies, they are very helpful.

I thought the electronic shutter would be used for faster than 1/8000 sec., I didn’t realize it could be used for normal shutter speeds. That’s good to know.

M lenses using only the central part of the field in the CL is a good point too. Comparing M and TL lenses should be interesting, being two completely different design philosophies.

Smaller sensors promised smaller lenses, but it turns out they require higher resolutions and thus bigger lenses. From an M shooter perspective it is disheartening to see the size of the SL lenses, or the difference in size between a 50mm Summilux-M and a 35mm Summilux-TL for a smaller sensor...

 

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But don't forget that lenses for mirrorless cameras have to contain motors to control AF and  aperture. On top of that M lenses have to be small not to obstruct the viewfinder, which drives up the price five times or so.

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Just get closer than 0.7 meter. 
It’s where mirrorless shine and rangefinder collapse. 
Or just use wider than 28mm or longer than 75mm. 
M cameras are excellent for 35 and 50mm. Very good for 28 and 75mm. Wider or longer ? Go mirrorless ! 
 

CL + Elmarit-TL 2.8/18 is same size as X2. With CL crop mode you get instant access to :     
28mm f/4.0 24MP 1.50x 
35mm f/5.0
 15MP 1.88x  
50mm f/7.1 7.5MP 2.69x

You are not losing anything against an X2    
35mm f/4.0 16MP 1.5x

As a bonus : OLED EVF, interchangeable mount, silent electronic shutter, better 3 buttons user interface, touch screen, way faster operation, 4K video, etc...

CL is one the best camera Leica ever released. My favourite with the Q and original M Monochrom. 

Edited by nicci78
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8 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Thanks for all the replies, they are very helpful.

I thought the electronic shutter would be used for faster than 1/8000 sec., I didn’t realize it could be used for normal shutter speeds. That’s good to know.

M lenses using only the central part of the field in the CL is a good point too. Comparing M and TL lenses should be interesting, being two completely different design philosophies.

Smaller sensors promised smaller lenses, but it turns out they require higher resolutions and thus bigger lenses. From an M shooter perspective it is disheartening to see the size of the SL lenses, or the difference in size between a 50mm Summilux-M and a 35mm Summilux-TL for a smaller sensor...

 

It is AF that seems to cause the larger size of mirrorless lenses, not smaller sensors, for two reasons: you need space for the motors etc, and you need to redesign them so that only the lightest lens elements are moved. Simply adding a motor to a M lens would give you sluggish and power-hungry performance. I'm not a lens designer, but I can understand that adding one more constraint means that something else has to give.

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25 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It is AF that seems to cause the larger size of mirrorless lenses, not smaller sensors, for two reasons: you need space for the motors etc, and you need to redesign them so that only the lightest lens elements are moved. Simply adding a motor to a M lens would give you sluggish and power-hungry performance. I'm not a lens designer, but I can understand that adding one more constraint means that something else has to give.

That could be the case, but then why are film era AF lenses smaller than current ones?

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My CL basically replaced my digital M cameras. I use it exclusively with M and R lenses. I've had it since 2018 ... never once have the dials been turned by rubbing on my clothing and such. I use the control lock to prevent myself from inadvertently changing settings with the four way controller, dials, or Fn/Menu buttons when walking. The imaging qualities are superb, virtually indistinguishable from what I was getting with my SL, M-P typ 240, and M-D typ 262 with the same lenses (of course, using the next wider lens in my M and R kit to accommodate the smaller format), and losing out to them slightly (in terms of noise/dynamic range) only at the highest ISO settings (which I only rarely use). For a compact walking/travel  kit, the CL with a Voigtländer Color-Skopar 28mm f/3.5 and an M-Rokkor 90mm f/4 is hard to beat; add a Voigtländer HyperWide 10mm f/5.6 ASPH and you have it all. Or just fit a 1972 Summilux 35mm f/1.4 and enjoy that. 

By combining lenses from Voigtländer, Leica M-series and Leica R-series, I have equivalent focal lengths from 15mm to 900mm available, all with crisp, clear, easy to focus and frame TTL viewing, and macro capabilities up to 2.7:1 native magnification available. It's an extremely versatile, useful camera, and a delight to use. I could not be happier with it for this kind of leicht Kamera use. :D When I need something beyond what CL is capable of, my usual need is to go with medium format film or digital.

G

Edited by ramarren
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My lightest travel kit is X-V + X-U. X-V gives me the zoom convenience, while X-U gives me the F1.7 and waterproof.  X-U is exceptionally helpful when close to water fall, or in the water or on the sand beach.

Do I miss anything? yes, sometimes I still want the 11-23mm wide angle that CL/TL can offer. I had Fujifilm XF10 for a while, the purpose is to cover the 28mm, but soon I found the 28mm/35mm difference is not worth the trouble. When 35mm is not wide enough, I really mean 17mm or so (11mm in APS-C).  Something like 28mm or 24mm suffers enough the wide angle distortion (not really distortion, but you know...). and yet still not wide enough. 

So my rather larger alternatives other than the Leica X-V-U combo is CL + trinity Z (11-23, 18-56, 55-135) + Summicron-M 35mm. 

 

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