Jono Slack Review: Leica SL2-S

[Chaemono]

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ISO 3200 can be made to look like ISO 100, almost.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-LCzrMq/

SL2 ISO 3200 processed

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[bilbrown]

3 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

Stellar work Jono!

It is interesting, but to be expected that equivalent generation of sensors will perform differently at high ISO when the pixel sizes are different.  Just pure physics of light given the electronics are essentially the same.  So, it seems to me the sensors do what is expected and the SL2-S would have better light capability.  However, on the SL2 side, for most applications, the noise at higher ISO will not be noticeable on the print or screen - at least at the sizes that an SL2-S image would typically be shown.  This has definitely been the case moving from the M246 monochrom to the M10 monochrom (24mp to 40mp).

An interesting comparison might be a 20x35 print of high ISO images side by side. I would expect the SL2 to appear somewhat sharper because of the extra pixels, and the SL2-S to be somewhat better saturated but a little fuzzy.  I printed some images from the M10-M at 17x22 (largest I can do) and ISO 50,000 and they were much less grainy than film would show and still had nice tone gradients.

Just musing.

The M246 to M10M is likely the new sensor tech based on the same tech in the S3. As is likely the SL2-S. This has more to do with the way the photocytes work with light. 
 

I’m no tech, at all, but I can tell you that my M10-R and SL2-S work very similarly with light and noise. Similarly, my S typ 007 works very well in Monochrom with details maintained. Why? I think it has a lot to do with bit depth.

Now, that said, I think the Sigma FP with the same sensor pushed to 12bit instead of 10bit foe video as the real beast in these 24MP L Mount cameras. However, it’s ergonomics are shit, it’s menus are not great (but better than Panasonic), and at the end of the day the best shooting experience is the SL2/SL2-S by far (the Sigma has that easy physical stills/cine button but lacks EVF and just simply haptic controls of the SL2/SL2-S — so that’s why the Leica wins).

I also purchased the Lumix S1 waiting for a 24MP SL variant and kept my SL typ 601 until last week. I used the S1 a bit more in 2020, because my shooting style changed (social distanced rules) needed some of the new sensors low light, but I was never really happy with the images. I also felt the SL1 had more in the video realm even though the S1 had higher Log and extra shit based on the EVA-1 etc. Again it was just usability and haptic response, build and more that I preferred the SL. The SL around summer this year started to show its... limitations. I wished for a low light SL MONSTER and settled on the M10R. Fantastic, but the M is a camera that demands precision and consideration. Something I could kind of “cheat” with the SL... shoot fast, think later. 
 

Now, it’s the decision to keep or give up the other L Mount variants and just roll with the SL2-S for the next few years. There is no one camera that is perfect... but this damn camera is fucking close...

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[bilbrown]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

ISO 3200 can be made to look like ISO 100, almost.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-LCzrMq/

SL2 ISO 3200 processed

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This is the way!!! 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, bilbrown said:

The M246 to M10M is likely the new sensor tech based on the same tech in the S3. As is likely the SL2-S. This has more to do with the way the photocytes work with light. 

<snip>

DPReview writes that SL2-S "almost certainly uses essentially the same sensor as the Sony a7 III" (same as in S5 and Z 6 II). S3 and M10-M use a different vendor, AFAIK.

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb bilbrown:

The M246...is likely the new sensor tech based on the same tech in the S3.

M240 sensor with a better Bayer filter for better colors and BS&I think.

[Slender]

15 hours ago, Chaemono said:

ISO 3200 can be made to look like ISO 100, almost.

 

Chaemono, could you give us more details about your workflow with Topaz denoise, please?

When and how do you integrate it in your workflow chain? Do you use it on the DNG file prior to adobe, on on the jpeg once you made all the adjustement with LR or PS?

I had "good enough for client hapiness" results delivering jpegs of shots made at 6400 and 12500 iso... I didn't follow Topaz advice and went to process images as usual in LR, then outputting max quality jpegs I then denoised with topaz... I scale some of them down for viewing/sharing convinience (down to 24 or 18mp - my old M9 workhorse resolution for many years 😇 ) in PS... looked great but I was wondering how to do it differently/better

[Chaemono]

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Slender:

 

Chaemono, could you give us more details about your workflow with Topaz denoise, please?

When and how do you integrate it in your workflow chain? Do you use it on the DNG file prior to adobe, on on the jpeg once you made all the adjustement with LR or PS?

I had "good enough for client hapiness" results delivering jpegs of shots made at 6400 and 12500 iso... I didn't follow Topaz advice and went to process images as usual in LR, then outputting max quality jpegs I then denoised with topaz... I scale some of them down for viewing/sharing convinience (down to 24 or 18mp - my old M9 workhorse resolution for many years 😇 ) in PS... looked great but I was wondering how to do it differently/better

I often find that it is important to provide Topaz DeNoise with as detailed and as clean an image as possible. So I process the DNG in LR first, like in the example below with WB adjusted and NR of +35. Then I round-trip it to Topaz DeNoise as a TIFF and let it do its magic there. Finally, I export from LR as a JPEG.

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[Slender]

Thank you. I did the tiff route too. Do you keep sharpening/denoise in LR off until the final output? I am not sure how Topaz Denoise manages color spaces too....
Another question: do you export a tiff, denoise it, and re-import it (in a different catalog?) or is there a way to integrate DeNoise to the LR workflow like PS ? (via the MAJ +E)?

[BernardC]

17 hours ago, SrMi said:

DPReview writes that SL2-S "almost certainly uses essentially the same sensor as the Sony a7 III" (same as in S5 and Z 6 II). S3 and M10-M use a different vendor, AFAIK.

Yes, it seems like everyone buys generic 24MP sensors from the same shop (except the M10), and they all have more-or-less the same performance. There is still some competition for higher-resolution sensors (Canon, Leica, and Panasonic use different suppliers than Nikon/Sony).

It's a good thing if it gets us past the "sensor wars." We've seen too many petty sensor debates, as if that was the only thing that mattered. We now know that sensors are a single ingredient in a complex recipe. All of the cameras that you mention, and the Sigma fp, have very different personalities. They are not interchangeable, in spite of having sensors that are manufactured in a similar way.

[Dr. G]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I often find that it is important to provide Topaz DeNoise with as detailed and as clean an image as possible. So I process the DNG in LR first, like in the example below with WB adjusted and NR of +35. Then I round-trip it to Topaz DeNoise as a TIFF and let it do its magic there. Finally, I export from LR as a JPEG.

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This is good information.  I never understood why Topaz recommended DeNoise as the first step before any processing, including level adjustments (at least they used to).  

[Daedalus2000]

7 hours ago, Slender said:

Thank you. I did the tiff route too. Do you keep sharpening/denoise in LR off until the final output? I am not sure how Topaz Denoise manages color spaces too....
Another question: do you export a tiff, denoise it, and re-import it (in a different catalog?) or is there a way to integrate DeNoise to the LR workflow like PS ? (via the MAJ +E)?

DeNoise works as a plugin for LR so it can re-import the tiff automatically to LR in the same library and folder. I found it very good but occasionally it creates some artifacts. 

[Daedalus2000]

18 minutes ago, Daedalus2000 said:

DeNoise works as a plugin for LR so it can re-import the tiff automatically to LR in the same library and folder. I found it very good but occasionally it creates some artifacts. 

And to show an example of what I mean, if we take the picture that @Chaemono posted above and take a crop you will see that it will not clean all areas, and for some it  will keep the noise or reduce it less, like the highlights in the crop below. I am not sure how the algo works, but I am guessing the model underneath it tries to identify the areas where the image has information (details) and therefore should not be denoised too much and areas where it does not have information/detail and need to be smoothed. Sometimes it gets it wrong, observe how smooth the darker areas are below and how noisy the highlights are...

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Another example from one of the iso 12500 pics from @Chaemono, observe how the noise between the branches is still high (and on the bokeh balls) but other blue areas have been smoothed a lot.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Daedalus2000

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Daedalus2000:

And to show an example of what I mean, if we take the picture that @Chaemono posted above and take a crop you will see that it will not clean all areas, and for some it  will keep the noise or reduce it less, like the highlights in the crop below. I am not sure how the algo works, but I am guessing the model underneath it tries to identify the areas where the image has information (details) and therefore should not be denoised too much and areas where it does not have information/detail and need to be smoothed. Sometimes it gets it wrong, observe how smooth the darker areas are below and how noisy the highlights are...

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Another example from one of the iso 12500 pics from @Chaemono, observe how the noise between the branches is still high (and on the bokeh balls) but other blue areas have been smoothed a lot.

There are trade-offs. At some point AI will become so good, it’ll be able to distinguish and adjust even these areas. It just has to look at thousands of Leica bokeh balls first. 😂

Edited December 30, 2020 by Chaemono

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Daedalus2000 said:

And to show an example of what I mean, if we take the picture that @Chaemono posted above and take a crop you will see that it will not clean all areas, and for some it  will keep the noise or reduce it less, like the highlights in the crop below. I am not sure how the algo works, but I am guessing the model underneath it tries to identify the areas where the image has information (details) and therefore should not be denoised too much and areas where it does not have information/detail and need to be smoothed. Sometimes it gets it wrong, observe how smooth the darker areas are below and how noisy the highlights are...

<snip>

Another example from one of the iso 12500 pics from @Chaemono, observe how the noise between the branches is still high (and on the bokeh balls) but other blue areas have been smoothed a lot.

<snip>

I have also observed inconsistencies in Topaz DeNoise AI: flat surfaces having varying amount of noise reduction. Therefore, I prefer doing it manually (LrC or PS), unless I am in a rush :).

Edited December 30, 2020 by SrMi

[Daedalus2000]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

There are trade-offs. At some point AI will become so good, it’ll be able to distinguish and adjust even these areas. It just has to look at thousands of Leica bokeh balls first. 😂

True 😂

[Chaemono]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

I have also observed inconsistencies in Topaz DeNoise AI: flat surfaces having varying amount of noise reduction. Therefore, I prefer doing it manually (LrC or PS), unless I am in a rush :).

You can’t gat the little guy with the wings and the candle to look like this from an SL2 ISO 3200 file unless you apply some kind of AI. One of the most overlooked aspects of Topaz DeNoise is that it also reconstructs the objects in focus.

[LocalHero1953]

I use DeNoise AI and Sharpen AI almost interchangeably - they both seem to apply noise reduction and sharpening, but with different emphasis. Both have automatic settings which I use initially, check the result, and then play around with the settings to see I can make it better - often I can. I agree both can introduce artefacts, but even so I find them both preferable to the blanket noise suppression of Lightroom which turns faces into polished plastic. Photoshop can manage it better than LR  because you can use masks for selective noise reduction (in principle you can in LR as well, but the noise reduction in local adjustment tools is simplistic).

I have been exploring DeNoise and Sharpen on various crappy images from my past: high ISO low light M9 shots, scanned film, jpgs, tiffs. The Topaz tools are undoubtedly best on modern raw images IMO - it doesn't seem to understand film and jpg noise well enough to make much difference.

I have a desktop PC with a high end graphics card, which makes it easy to use these tools to preview changes in real time; I can imagine that on a lower spec device they could be a real pain to use in anything but full auto mode, and even that would be slow.  

Edit: Unlike @Chaemono I have always reduced noise reduction, sharpening, clarity and texture to zero before editing in Topaz. I will try his method of applying some NR in Lightroom first, to see if it helps with analogue and old jpg noise.

Edited December 31, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[Daedalus2000]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

You can’t gat the little guy with the wings and the candle to look like this from an SL2 ISO 3200 file unless you apply some kind of AI. One of the most overlooked aspects of Topaz DeNoise is that it also reconstructs the objects in focus.

 

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I use DeNoise AI and Sharpen AI almost interchangeably - they both seem to apply noise reduction and sharpening, but with different emphasis. Both have automatic settings which I use initially, check the result, and then play around with the settings to see I can make it better - often I can. I agree both can introduce artefacts, but even so I find them both preferable to the blanket noise suppression of Lightroom which turns faces into polished plastic. Photoshop can manage it better than LR  because you can use masks for selective noise reduction (in principle you can in LR as well, but the noise reduction in local adjustment tools is simplistic).

I have been exploring DeNoise and Sharpen on various crappy images from my past: high ISO low light M9 shots, scanned film, jpgs, tiffs. The Topaz tools are undoubtedly best on modern raw images IMO - it doesn't seem to understand film and jpg noise well enough to make much difference.

I have a desktop PC with a high end graphics card, which makes it easy to use these tools to preview changes in real time; I can imagine that on a lower spec device they could be a real pain to use in anything but full auto mode, and even that would be slow.  

Edit: Unlike @Chaemono I have always reduced noise reduction, sharpening, clarity and texture to zero before editing in Topaz. I will try his method of applying some NR in Lightroom first, to see if it helps with analogue and old jpg noise.

I have found the PRIME noise reduction in DxO Photolab to be very good and recently I started using the DeepPRIME in DxO Photolab 4 which also uses AI. It seems to work well but I have not done extensive work with it and unfortunately it depends on the software supporting your camera's raw files. 

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, Daedalus2000 said:

 

I have found the PRIME noise reduction in DxO Photolab to be very good and recently I started using the DeepPRIME in DxO Photolab 4 which also uses AI. It seems to work well but I have not done extensive work with it and unfortunately it depends on the software supporting your camera's raw files. 

DxO does not support leica files from sl2 or newer.

Topaz really need to be used with blend in original. Otherwise it looks so fake

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[SrMi]

On 12/30/2020 at 8:36 AM, Dr. G said:

This is good information.  I never understood why Topaz recommended DeNoise as the first step before any processing, including level adjustments (at least they used to).  

AI based noised reductions are apparently trained on files coming from cameras, not from post-processed files. This means that they may be more effective before any post-processing is applied.