Lumix 20-60 soft on TL2?

[Daedalus2000]

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Hi everyone,

I got the Panasonic S5 plus the 20-60mm zoom as the price was good and also got the sigma 45mm for free. I thought it will also be nice to use the zoom with my TL2, but after using it a couple of times it feels a bit soft. Has anyone had any similar experience with it? I attach a crop from the central area of a pic at f5.6 and 1/500 speed at iso 250.

What do you think? The same lens looks fine on the S5.

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Edited December 3, 2020 by Daedalus2000

[wda]

It looks soft. How do your TL lenses perform on the same body? Can you show comparison shots?

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[Daedalus2000]

10 minutes ago, wda said:

It looks soft. How do your TL lenses perform on the same body? Can you show comparison shots?

Thank you for your reply. I do not have any TL lenses now, I used to have them when I had the T some time ago and I remember them being sharper. 

I have the sigma 45mm of course and this looks a bit sharper. I need to do a proper comparison but here is a crop for the center from the 45mm sigma (f4, 1/500 at iso 640)

(all pics processed from raw with default sharpening at LR)

 

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[Boojay]

That's strange.  Our son bought the S5, similar package to you I guess and I tried the 20-60 on my CL.  Just had a quick look through the few files I have and they are plenty sharp enough, no suggestion of any softness as your example.  Wondering if it's a camera firmware issue as I know the CL has had more recent updates.  As your lens is sharp and working properly on your S5 can't explain it any other way really.  

There is a thread on here somewhere about the lack of firmware support for the TL2 and I know I would be a bit annoyed about it had I gone that route rather than the CL

 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Hi everyone,

I got the Panasonic S5 plus the 20-60mm zoom as the price was good and also got the sigma 45mm for free. I thought it will also be nice to use the zoom with my TL2, but after using it a couple of times it feels a bit soft. Has anyone had any similar experience with it? I attach a crop from the central area of a pic at f5.6 and 1/500 speed at iso 250.

What do you think? The same lens looks fine on the S5.

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Looks like shutter slap to me. Try the electronic shutter.

[Daedalus2000]

23 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Looks like shutter slap to me. Try the electronic shutter.

Good point, I will try that.

[Boojay]

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11 minutes ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Good point, I will try that.

Would be interested to know if that makes a difference for you.

[kalifornier]

Here's my experience. I recently bought the Lumix 20-60 for my TL2 as well. AF seems a hit or miss even in bright light at f/8 with pics looking 'just out of focus'. I've tried both electronic and mechanical shutter. I had to start fine tuning focus using MF and magnified view. But that defeats the purpose of having an AF lens. By comparison, the  'lowly' Lumix 14-42 kit lens that came with my GX8 gives sharp pics every time. I don't even have to think about it.

[wda]

37 minutes ago, kalifornier said:

Here's my experience. I recently bought the Lumix 20-60 for my TL2 as well. AF seems a hit or miss even in bright light at f/8 with pics looking 'just out of focus'. I've tried both electronic and mechanical shutter. I had to start fine tuning focus using MF and magnified view. But that defeats the purpose of having an AF lens. By comparison, the  'lowly' Lumix 14-42 kit lens that came with my GX8 gives sharp pics every time. I don't even have to think about it.

Perhaps this is the reason some people prefer the more expensive Leica version. I have neither lens.

[Daedalus2000]

6 hours ago, kalifornier said:

Here's my experience. I recently bought the Lumix 20-60 for my TL2 as well. AF seems a hit or miss even in bright light at f/8 with pics looking 'just out of focus'. I've tried both electronic and mechanical shutter. I had to start fine tuning focus using MF and magnified view. But that defeats the purpose of having an AF lens. By comparison, the  'lowly' Lumix 14-42 kit lens that came with my GX8 gives sharp pics every time. I don't even have to think about it.

Thank you very much for your input. Weather today was horrible so I did not manage to do any tests, but I will do tomorrow.  Actually I just remembered that I was getting an AF confirmation with the Sigma 45mm on a face but the lens was not focused at all on the face. I need to do lots of testing...

I was wondering if full frame lenses (especially kit zooms) have been designed to work with larger pixels and do not perform well with the smaller pixels that you have with APS-C sensors...

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Daedalus2000

[jaapv]

The same answer as in some other threads - small and light cameras, like the CL and T-series suffer from shutter slap, especially when used with heavier, front-heavy  and/or larger lenses that do not balance perfectly. Try using the Electronic Shutter for sharper results. An extreme example of this effect is the Sigma 100-400.

Pixel size has exactly zero to do with it - although it does influence the rendering of motion blur. The higher magnification due to the smaller sensor size will increase the visibility of all kinds of unsharpness, though.

It is possible that the plane of focus of the lens can be adjusted in the lens firmware by using Sigma's USB adapter - worth investigating.

[Daedalus2000]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

The same answer as in some other threads - small and light cameras, like the CL and T-series suffer from shutter slap, especially when used with heavier, front-heavy  and/or larger lenses that do not balance perfectly. Try using the Electronic Shutter for sharper results. An extreme example of this effect is the Sigma 100-400.

I will do some testing tomorrow. Will the shutter slap appear on all speeds? I used 1/500 inmy original images.

Pixel size has exactly zero to do with it - although it does influence the rendering of motion blur. The higher magnification due to the smaller sensor size will increase the visibility of all kinds of unsharpness, though.

Yes that was my point really

It is possible that the plane of focus of the lens can be adjusted in the lens firmware by using Sigma's USB adapter - worth investigating. 

Can Sigma's USB adapter may work on non-Sigma lenses?

 

[jaapv]

I have seen it  at higher speeds as well, it seems to be comparable to a resonance.

 

 

 

I think it is quite unlikely to put it mildly that the USB adapter will work on non-Sigma lenses. It uses dedicated Sigma software on your computer to rewrite the firmware of the lens and varies in function depending on the lens. I does not work on all Sigma lenses either. There is documentation on the Sigma site.

[Daedalus2000]

I did not have time to do proper testing, but here are some first results. They are not scientific but maybe they give us an idea.

So I used my SL2 and my TL2 and my 2 zooms the Leica 24-90 and the Panasonic 20-60. I tried to be around 50mm, f5.6 (or close haha) and speed 1/250. The weather is not good so the iso was high unfortunately... I use the viewfinder on my TL2 to minimise shaking from keeping the camera further apart from my face.

First of all I tried with electronic shutter and mechanical shutter, I did not see major differences so I am not showing the results here. I will redo these tests in the weekend to make sure I did not mess something up.

Now, lets see how the 2 lenses compare on the SL2 using central crops. We can see that the Leica is of course a better lens but ok the 20-60 is not that bad, quite descent I would say.

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Now lets compare the 2 lenses on the TL2. Here we see the 24-90 behaving better in comparison to 20-60.

and now lets see the 20-60 as it compares between the 2 cameras. Obviously here we see a big difference, as the same lens behaves much better on the SL2.

So at the moment my main theory is that it must be an issue of stabilization... The SL2 and the 24-90 have stabilization so maybe the issue is that I do not hold the TL2 steady enough... Not sure... But you can see now what I mean that the lens does not behave as well in the TL2 as in the S5 and SL2...

I will continue my tests over the weekend and report back. 

 

 

 

[Reggie]

So let me get this straight.

Your first pair puts a €4680 lens up against a €640 lens on a €5800 body. Expensive lens wins but not by much.

The second pair puts a €4680 lens up against a €640 lens on a €1500 body. Expensive lens wins but by a bit more.

Your final pair puts a €640 lens on a €5800 body up against a €1500 body with the same lens and at different ISOs. Surprise, surprise, the same lens looks better on the more expensive body at lower ISO.

Given the vast disparity between the prices and presumably the engineering which has gone into the lenses and cameras, I don't see anything to disturb the natural order of things.

I get your concern that the Panasonic is not performing as well on the TL2 as the SL2. But much as I would like the TL2 to have the same ability as the SL2 to extract the best performance from the Pana lens, I think it just isn't as capable as the SL2 (and its pixel pitch is 8% smaller).

The images taken with the TL2/Pana combo of the plants are technically much shaper than your original image of the houses - so I think Jaap was correct to diagnose shutter slap...

Edited December 4, 2020 by Reggie

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, Daedalus2000 said:

I did not have time to do proper testing, but here are some first results. They are not scientific but maybe they give us an idea.

So I used my SL2 and my TL2 and my 2 zooms the Leica 24-90 and the Panasonic 20-60. I tried to be around 50mm, f5.6 (or close haha) and speed 1/250. The weather is not good so the iso was high unfortunately... I use the viewfinder on my TL2 to minimise shaking from keeping the camera further apart from my face.

First of all I tried with electronic shutter and mechanical shutter, I did not see major differences so I am not showing the results here. I will redo these tests in the weekend to make sure I did not mess something up.

Now, lets see how the 2 lenses compare on the SL2 using central crops. We can see that the Leica is of course a better lens but ok the 20-60 is not that bad, quite descent I would say.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Now lets compare the 2 lenses on the TL2. Here we see the 24-90 behaving better in comparison to 20-60.

and now lets see the 20-60 as it compares between the 2 cameras. Obviously here we see a big difference, as the same lens behaves much better on the SL2.

So at the moment my main theory is that it must be an issue of stabilization... The SL2 and the 24-90 have stabilization so maybe the issue is that I do not hold the TL2 steady enough... Not sure... But you can see now what I mean that the lens does not behave as well in the TL2 as in the S5 and SL2...

I will continue my tests over the weekend and report back. 

 

 

 

It might be useful to use a tripod and to use equal exposures.

[Daedalus2000]

4 hours ago, Reggie said:

So let me get this straight.

Your first pair puts a €4680 lens up against a €640 lens on a €5800 body. Expensive lens wins but not by much.

The second pair puts a €4680 lens up against a €640 lens on a €1500 body. Expensive lens wins but by a bit more.

Your final pair puts a €640 lens on a €5800 body up against a €1500 body with the same lens and at different ISOs. Surprise, surprise, the same lens looks better on the more expensive body at lower ISO.

Given the vast disparity between the prices and presumably the engineering which has gone into the lenses and cameras, I don't see anything to disturb the natural order of things.

I get your concern that the Panasonic is not performing as well on the TL2 as the SL2. But much as I would like the TL2 to have the same ability as the SL2 to extract the best performance from the Pana lens, I think it just isn't as capable as the SL2 (and its pixel pitch is 8% smaller).

The images taken with the TL2/Pana combo of the plants are technically much shaper than your original image of the houses - so I think Jaap was correct to diagnose shutter slap...

Thank you for your contribution but I think all these prices you mention in your post disguise the conclusions. Lets just focus on what we see, lets forget about prices for a second.

In the first example a cheap lens performs almost as good as an expensive lens, I would say this is not expected.

in the last comparison I do not even understand this statement

But much as I would like the TL2 to have the same ability as the SL2 to extract the best performance from the Pana lens, I think it just isn't as capable as the SL2 (and its pixel pitch is 8% smaller).

Why is the TL2 not able to extract the same performance when the pixel pitch is almost the same? What is the reason for that? This is exactly the question I try to answer so I cannot just accept it as true just because of the price. I tried to add one more comparison with a cheaper camera so you see price is not as important but I could not upload more images, so please wait until tomorrow.

Also with respect to the Jaap diagnosis I said that electronic shutter vs mechanical shutter did not have a big effect. But I will try to follow his advice and fix all parameters (iso and hopefully the tripod as well if I can)

The reality is the lens does not perform as well as I was hoping, but still performs well in full frame cameras that have IBIS.... Just trying to understand if it is me, the shutter or the IBIS (or IS in general)

 

 

 

 

[Reggie]

5 hours ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Thank you for your contribution but...

...in the last comparison I do not even understand this statement

But much as I would like the TL2 to have the same ability as the SL2 to extract the best performance from the Pana lens, I think it just isn't as capable as the SL2 (and its pixel pitch is 8% smaller).

Why is the TL2 not able to extract the same performance when the pixel pitch is almost the same? What is the reason for that? This is exactly the question I try to answer so I cannot just accept it as true just because of the price.

 

 

 

 

Think about it this way. If the Panasonic images on the TL2 were as a good as they are on the Sl2, why would anyone buy an SL2?

[Daedalus2000]

21 minutes ago, Reggie said:

Think about it this way. If the Panasonic images on the TL2 were as a good as they are on the Sl2, why would anyone buy an SL2?

Yes I guess this is one way of looking at it. Honestly I was just a bit disappointed because I was hoping that the zoom will give me some descent results and I like that it was so light... Anyway, I will continue looking at it. 

Thanks for your reply.

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[jaapv]

It is so d**n difficult these days to make such comparisons, as in-camera processing varies so much between brands and models (yes, raw is processed in-camera) and each camera needs different post-processing as well. I'm sure that these images can be brought much closer if each is processed optimally.