thoughts on the Q2M

[brickftl]

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I've been looking at the thread containing these images. They're all nice but I'm scratching my head whether they are better than what the Q2 would have shot and then converted skillfully in post to black/white. Even the lower light images don't appear so dark that lifting their shadows on a Q2 would result in more noise/grain than had they been shot with the Q2M. 

So that said, I'm also scratching my head as to the motivation of people buying the Q2M. I'm not criticizing their decision, but rather just trying to understand it inasmuch as the tradeoff with the Q2M compared to the Q2 is not having either the option of shooting color nor the ability to apply color filters during black/white conversion. I just think the average Q2M shooter would be hard pressed to demonstrate that those images are somehow superior to the same images shot with the Q2 and post processed to black/white.

[nwphil]

I looked at the Q2 and M monochrome options before deciding to buy the Q2M - and in the end, it is all about the package, meaning the system simplicity, the forcible accepted thinking of how to obtain images in monochromatic - aka no "cheating" in post. The tradeoffs and lack of options (switch to color mode) were also part of my reasoning/justification. I have 3 other cameras that can shot in monochromatic - not in post, but in-camera settings, and it's not the same  to me....

To each, his own    I convinced myself, no one can do it for you, and actually the Q2 ended not appealing to because that would mean getting rid of my noctilux 

Edited December 2, 2020 by nwphil
darn spellercheck (its>his)

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[nico4444]

1 hour ago, brickftl said:

I've been looking at the thread containing these images. They're all nice but I'm scratching my head whether they are better than what the Q2 would have shot and then converted skillfully in post to black/white. Even the lower light images don't appear so dark that lifting their shadows on a Q2 would result in more noise/grain than had they been shot with the Q2M. 

So that said, I'm also scratching my head as to the motivation of people buying the Q2M. I'm not criticizing their decision, but rather just trying to understand it inasmuch as the tradeoff with the Q2M compared to the Q2 is not having either the option of shooting color nor the ability to apply color filters during black/white conversion. I just think the average Q2M shooter would be hard pressed to demonstrate that those images are somehow superior to the same images shot with the Q2 and post processed to black/white.

I find the idea of a monochrome camera incredibly appealing and like you, I have some doubts about the Q2M.

With the Q2, you are already at a fixed focal length and in my opinion, removing color filters from the sensor takes the niche to the next level, which I personally consider artistic freedom, but I assume 99% of people can't justify spending this kind of money for this kind of camera. I dislike Leica M rangefinders, so I was pumped after hearing about the Q2M, but upon some reflections, I think it is best to wait a few months to see what the market has to offer, like the rumoured GFX monochrome.

[SrMi]

22 minutes ago, nico4444 said:

I find the idea of a monochrome camera incredibly appealing and like you, I have some doubts about the Q2M.

With the Q2, you are already at a fixed focal length and in my opinion, removing color filters from the sensor takes the niche to the next level, which I personally consider artistic freedom, but I assume 99% of people can't justify spending this kind of money for this kind of camera. I dislike Leica M rangefinders, so I was pumped after hearing about the Q2M, but upon some reflections, I think it is best to wait a few months to see what the market has to offer, like the rumoured GFX monochrome.

The rumored GFX monochrome turned out to be the GFX100 IR.

[nico4444]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The rumored GFX monochrome turned out to be the GFX100 IR.

Thanks for letting me know.

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, brickftl said:

I've been looking at the thread containing these images. They're all nice but I'm scratching my head whether they are better than what the Q2 would have shot and then converted skillfully in post to black/white. Even the lower light images don't appear so dark that lifting their shadows on a Q2 would result in more noise/grain than had they been shot with the Q2M. 

So that said, I'm also scratching my head as to the motivation of people buying the Q2M. I'm not criticizing their decision, but rather just trying to understand it inasmuch as the tradeoff with the Q2M compared to the Q2 is not having either the option of shooting color nor the ability to apply color filters during black/white conversion. I just think the average Q2M shooter would be hard pressed to demonstrate that those images are somehow superior to the same images shot with the Q2 and post processed to black/white.

In my experience (key words there), trying to do a critical evaluation of Q2 Mono vs. Q2 B&W conversions on a laptop or desktop computer screen from the small file images posted here does not give an accurate rendering of the differences in image quality.  These posted images give an approximation and do not tell the whole story. 

To really be able to see the finer points of the differences, you need a properly processed printed large format image (11x14 inches or larger) or at minimum be able to look at the full size file on a large format, properly calibrated screen.  This is where pixel peeping can actually be a useful pursuit and not just pointless tech geekery.

The color Q2 camera is more versatile in that you have the option of either a color or B&W end product image, whether it is printed or on screen.  The Q2 Mono is an entirely different camera with different capabilities and a different underlying philosophy/world view/approach that resonates with some photographers and does not resonate with other photographers. 

My approach has been to build my Leica kit consisting of a color Q2 and an M10 Monochrom as my mainstay cameras, with my M-P 240 as a backup.  This gives me the ability to shoot in either color or black and white beginning with the release of the shutter and to be able to do so with the ability to use different focal lengths when the need presents itself.  This is a good approach for me and has worked well so far.  The Q2 Mono is still tempting, though.  As is the 28mm Summilux ASPH M lens.

JMHO/YMMV/DSMIJTPP

(don't shoot me, I'm just the piano player). 😳

Edited December 2, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[Leica28]

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My contribution to this posting will be simple.  The questions posed (head scratching, etc) have been answered by me in other areas of this forum.  No need to constantly repeat when a simple forum search will uncover comments I've made about Leica's new camera.   Like anything else in life, if cost is an issue, then simply walk away and get on with living.   This is only a camera - not a life changing transformation into the next world.   The important differences between the Q2 and the new Q2M are vast.   

[brickftl]

1 hour ago, Leica28 said:

My contribution to this posting will be simple.  The questions posed (head scratching, etc) have been answered by me in other areas of this forum.  No need to constantly repeat when a simple forum search will uncover comments I've made about Leica's new camera.   Like anything else in life, if cost is an issue, then simply walk away and get on with living.   This is only a camera - not a life changing transformation into the next world.   The important differences between the Q2 and the new Q2M are vast.   

no one asked you to repeat whatever may have been your prior comments, and it's prissy in the extreme to suggest that someone posting a question is somehow required to do an exhaustive search before posting to see if there are other tightly wound people like you who may have covered that topic previously. Suggestion - next time you get offended because someone dared violate your imaginary rules of appropriate conduct, perhaps its best if you just move on.

Edited December 2, 2020 by brickftl

[Fedro]

I am in two minds about this camera ... on the one hand it had me drooling when it came out, and the files look gorgeous. On the other, I know that I had the Q2 and let it go as I found dealing with the huge files a pain for what I substantially saw as a (very) glorified point and shoot - with a fantastic added value of the macro function

The Q2M clearly changes that as it is so niche that it becomes more artistic and no longer a general purpose camera, so I doubt I would take the same amount of pictures with it that I used to take with the Q2 (thus reducing the pain factor)

That said .. I love my M10M and I find that I love the idea of being able to use the WATE on it, or the 50 APO. I would not get the Q2M instead of the M10M (and if I had to add a second monochrome, when the M10Ms will start showing up second hand I may get a second one).

Also the Q2's macro function, I think is a lot more valuable with the option of colour.

So tempted as I am, I will probably leave it and wait for M10Ms to show up on second hand market (not holding my breath). If I win the lottery may get both another M10M and Q2M

[nwphil]

36 minutes ago, Fedro said:

I am in two minds about this camera ... on the one hand it had me drooling when it came out, and the files look gorgeous. On the other, I know that I had the Q2 and let it go as I found dealing with the huge files a pain for what I substantially saw as a (very) glorified point and shoot - with a fantastic added value of the macro function

The Q2M clearly changes that as it is so niche that it becomes more artistic and no longer a general purpose camera, so I doubt I would take the same amount of pictures with it that I used to take with the Q2 (thus reducing the pain factor)

That said .. I love my M10M and I find that I love the idea of being able to use the WATE on it, or the 50 APO. I would not get the Q2M instead of the M10M (and if I had to add a second monochrome, when the M10Ms will start showing up second hand I may get a second one).

Also the Q2's macro function, I think is a lot more valuable with the option of colour.

So tempted as I am, I will probably leave it and wait for M10Ms to show up on second hand market (not holding my breath). If I win the lottery may get both another M10M and Q2M

If you have the M10M, it has 40MP - so, the  Q2M it's just another 7MP which it's not as huge as if you were coming from a M246 or M9M....

otoh, you could always challenge yourself  shooting jpeg only at lower resolution, but that seems like a waste of resources to me.

I don't mind changing lenses, and indeed some are irreplaceable, hence keeping the M240. The macro Q2/Q2M more of a close-up shooting feature, not  even a 1:2; it works fine to me neverless, but also not understanding well why you want two M10M...not judging, just curious.

Reasoning buying the Q2M it's a process, a bit more than with any other camera ( monochrome, fixed lens), but take your time - to me helps writing down the pro's and con's and why and why-not - then reading it thru allows me to see if my reasoning makes sense

[Herr Barnack]

4 hours ago, brickftl said:

no one asked you to repeat whatever may have been your prior comments, and it's prissy in the extreme to suggest that someone posting a question is somehow required to do an exhaustive search before posting to see if there are other tightly wound people like you who may have covered that topic previously. Suggestion - next time you get offended because someone dared violate your imaginary rules of appropriate conduct, perhaps its best if you just move on.

Hear, hear. 

I have been a forum member for a number of years now and early on grew quite weary of the officious and sanctimonious edicts that some members have felt was their sacred duty to attempt to foist on others - particularly when they themselves were asked for nothing to begin with.

As I recall it has not been moderators indulging in this kind of obnoxiousness.  I don't ever recall a moderator jumping on a member for simply asking a question, or for asking to hear the thoughts of others regarding a photography or Leica related topic/issue.  One of the prime reasons for the existence of this forum is the sharing of photographic knowledge and experience, is it not??

Perhaps I could be wrong, but it seems to me that self-anointed mall cop types are of precious little value in these parts.

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, Leica28 said:

My contribution to this posting will be simple.  The questions posed (head scratching, etc) have been answered by me in other areas of this forum.  No need to constantly repeat when a simple forum search will uncover comments I've made about Leica's new camera.   Like anything else in life, if cost is an issue, then simply walk away and get on with living.   This is only a camera - not a life changing transformation into the next world.   The important differences between the Q2 and the new Q2M are vast.   

In fairness, many of the same questions and answers have been posed and addressed each and every time Leica has introduced a Monochrom camera, starting with the M Monochrom (vs M9) in 2012, then the M246 (vs M240) , and yet again with the M10 Monochrom (vs M10-R).  

A simple forum search will bring up very similar discussions.  Just like myriad other forum topics.

Jeff

 

[nwphil]

33 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

In fairness, many of the same questions and answers have been posed and addressed each and every time Leica has introduced a Monochrom camera, starting with the M Monochrom (vs M9) in 2012, then the M246 (vs M240) , and yet again with the M10 Monochrom (vs M10-R).  

A simple forum search will bring up very similar discussions.  Just like myriad other forum topics.

Jeff

 

Highlighted in red is very similar to be found in other camera forums, as far as responses to similar questions to new model is better than older, should I upgrade, what's the point of mirrorless, etc, etc...etc

Some people need more validation, don't know how to do proper keyword search, rather have their OWN question answered, a bit lazy to search......one can find a lot of reasons, but as long as people respect each other and accept the difference with no need to agree, that's all good - if one knows so well that was discussed already, why not point exactly were and/or help out giving a few pointers where to find or how to?

Edited December 3, 2020 by nwphil

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, nwphil said:

Highlighted in red is very similar to be found in other camera forums, as far as responses to similar questions to new model is better than olde, should I upgrade, what's the point of mirrorless, etc, etc...etc

Some people need more validation, don't know how to do proper keyword search, rather have their OWN question answered, a bit lazy to search......one can find a lot of reasons, but as long as people respect each other and accept the difference with no need to agree, that's all good - if one knows so well that was discussed already, why not point exactly were and/or help out giving a few pointers where to find or how to?

You missed the sarcasm.

Jeff

[nwphil]

6 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

You missed the sarcasm.

Jeff

I guess so, but despite quoting you, my little rant was not addressed at you - obviously you know better that it's one of many cycles that happen so often - and talking about that here's one somewhat fitting

( I have seen one better in a photo forum, but this gives the idea.....)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Daedalus2000]

11 hours ago, Fedro said:

 

So tempted as I am, I will probably leave it and wait for M10Ms to show up on second hand market (not holding my breath). If I win the lottery may get both another M10M and Q2M

here you are 

 

[Fedro]

4 minutes ago, Daedalus2000 said:

here you are 

 

thanks, still on the expensive side. I can wait for a while longer, and for prices to come down a little

[Fedro]

10 hours ago, nwphil said:

If you have the M10M, it has 40MP - so, the  Q2M it's just another 7MP which it's not as huge as if you were coming from a M246 or M9M....

otoh, you could always challenge yourself  shooting jpeg only at lower resolution, but that seems like a waste of resources to me.

I don't mind changing lenses, and indeed some are irreplaceable, hence keeping the M240. The macro Q2/Q2M more of a close-up shooting feature, not  even a 1:2; it works fine to me neverless, but also not understanding well why you want two M10M...not judging, just curious.

Reasoning buying the Q2M it's a process, a bit more than with any other camera ( monochrome, fixed lens), but take your time - to me helps writing down the pro's and con's and why and why-not - then reading it thru allows me to see if my reasoning makes sense

I think these are different cameras and the Q I find a good match for the SL/SL2 (that is how I used to use it anyhow), so I used to use it together with the SL rather than the M

I always tend to have two M bodies and have a WA and a short tele on either, that is how I like to shoot and for me Ms are really about B&W. You can get amazing B&W files out of the M10 too, btw if you know what you are doing. So for now I am keeping one Mono one colour

Separately, the M10M (and the X1D) have some of the best files I have ever seen from a digital camera so I would be happy to trade in some of the things that I am not using much at the moment and just use those (plus the SL2 which I also love for different reasons, and also adds zoom, video etc)

Edited December 3, 2020 by Fedro

[brickftl]

22 hours ago, Jeff S said:

In fairness, many of the same questions and answers have been posed and addressed each and every time Leica has introduced a Monochrom camera, starting with the M Monochrom (vs M9) in 2012, then the M246 (vs M240) , and yet again with the M10 Monochrom (vs M10-R).  

A simple forum search will bring up very similar discussions.  Just like myriad other forum topics.

Jeff

 

oh puuuleeez, another officious member who gets his panties in a wad when someone fails to follow his best practices. NO, I will not as you suggest conduct a search to see if my question has been fully and exactly addressed before. As I suggested to Leica28 (who may very well be your long lost relative), if someone's question annoys you because it doesn't implement your best practices, the best thing for you to do is close your eyes tightly and move on. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by brickftl

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[Jeff S]

33 minutes ago, brickftl said:

oh puuuleeez, another officious member who gets his panties in a wad when someone fails to follow his best practices. NO, I will not as you suggest conduct a search to see if my question has been fully and exactly addressed before. As I suggested to Leica28 (who may very well be your long lost relative), if someone's question annoys you because it doesn't implement your best practices, the best thing for you to do is close your eyes tightly and move on. 

You also missed the sarcasm.  I was arguing in YOUR  favor, suggesting that the other commenter could better spend time doing his own search. (Then he wouldn’t be boasting as if he somehow invented the conversation, or the ‘right’ to engage it.)

Jeff

Edited December 4, 2020 by Jeff S