Suitable material for new FILCA felt light seals

[wlaidlaw]

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I want to make new seals for the three better examples of my FILCA cassettes as some are missing and others hard or damaged. These are to use on my IIIa with 2 speed MOOLY motor drive. The motor drive apparently works much better with FILCA cassettes than regular commercial cassettes, due to the absence of light seal drag once the FILCA cassettes are open. I already have an AFLOO winder, which I use for loading my big KOOBF cassettes for the 250FF. Has anyone made new FILCA seals and if so, what material (felt?) and thickness did they use. I have a set of hole punches, which I use for making replacement gaskets for old cars, so I can easily cut out the centre holes after using a sharp pair of scissors to cut the discs, as I don't think I have a large enough hole punch to cut the discs. Some folks suggest just using a light seal at the bottom but others say two seals, top and bottom. What is the consensus? 

Wilson

[Reini]

My recommendation: DC Fix Velours. Sticks very well and is thin. You can glue the whole pane in and then cut out the holes with a small cutter (scalpel).

It becomes more elegant and beautiful with a punch.

My Filcas have above and below Velours.

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[jankap]

Filca´s don´t have felt light seals. The inner container rotates 180 degrees inside the outer one, when you close the camera. That is enough.

Mines have above and below very thin velour seals. (Thanks Reini). Never noticed them.

Edited November 16, 2020 by jankap

[tranquilo67]

Hi Wilson,

I cleaned some of my FILCA's and the felt came out. It's an extremely thin (almost like a paper sheet) self adhesive felt and it's in both sides. By the way, I tried to cut some replacements and it was nearly impossible so I put the originals back. One of the issues was to cut the ring for the outer side small enough to let the inner part to go fully into the outer shell.

Hope it will help,

Augusto

 

[Reini]

You're right jankap, but it would have to be tight even without velor.
But you never know. Too much light when you take it out !? But it is also a protection against dust.

[wlaidlaw]

Thanks guys for the information. Somewhere I should have some self adhesive velour, which I used to replace the light seals on the 10 film strip (unperforated 35mm) magazine on my WW1 vintage  Richards Stereo Verascope military camera. If I could get access to a small lathe, I could easily make a cutter for the outside of the discs from a piece of steel pipe and then harden it when finished. I gave my 1907 vintage Willson Smith lathe away but it would really have been too large for that sort of job anyway. I used to use that lathe for Speed Six Bentley and Lagonda M45 brake drums. 

Wilson

[Reini]

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I would make a special tool for insertion.

 

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[willeica]

1 minute ago, wlaidlaw said:

Thanks guys for the information. Somewhere I should have some self adhesive velour, which I used to replace the light seals on the 10 film strip (unperforated 35mm) magazine on my WW1 vintage  Richards Stereo Verascope military camera. If I could get access to a small lathe, I could easily make a cutter for the outside of the discs from a piece of steel pipe and then harden it when finished. I gave my 1907 vintage Willson Smith lathe away but it would really have been too large for that sort of job anyway. I used to use that lathe for Speed Six Bentley and Lagonda M45 brake drums. 

Wilson

 Wilson, we really need to see the film cassette you have. As Jankap says, FILCAs don't have seals near the film and they are opened and closed by the baseplate unlocking mechanism. There is a circular piece of felt at the top and bottom (see photo below) but this does not seem to relate to lightsealing for the film. Later cassettes from the FILCA D/ Agfa/Leitz/IXMOO group have a different film 'escape' mechanism.

See below a FILCA B which kept a roll of film light tight for 70 years without any felt around the film 

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Here is an example of a light leak free frame from the film roll that was in that cassette for 70 years.

Some of the frames have a light leak exactly matching the 'door' on the FILCA where I and others had opened it.

You can have fun identifying the cars in the last one.

William

 

[Reini]

This is a job with two Hollow Punchers. 11mm (12mm would be better) and 20mm diameter.

New idea: You don't need any special tools. You can insert the velor with the spool!

 

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[Ambro51]

Weren’t cassettes routinely stored in their aluminum containers,  very much limiting their incidental light exposure?

[wlaidlaw]

I think the felt "washers" in my FILCA cassettes from reassembling the remains are 22 x 12 x 2mm. I went and looked at my set of hole punches and they went from 2mm up only to 20mm but there is at least a 12mm punch. I then remembered I had some assorted sheet metal hole cutters, stamps and dies in another tool cabinet. I was delighted to find there, a 7/8" Kennedy type hole punch in amongst the assorted sheet metal tools and this will be perfect. It was still in its box and it doesn't look as if I have ever used it. 7/8 of an inch is near enough to 22mm. The sticky back velvet is proving more elusive. 

Wilson

PS I think the washers are to reduce the friction of the spool against the brass of the cassette parts. 

 

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Edited November 16, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

PS I think the washers are to reduce the friction of the spool against the brass of the cassette parts. 

That is my sense as well. It is basically a felt washer to avoid friction as the spool turns. There should be no light leaks onto the film from that area as the spool ends fit in snugly. The area around the film escapement opening does not need any seals as the above example shows. The only chance of a light leak is if you accidentally open the FILCA as shown above. 

William

[romualdo]

Just looked at my IXMOO that's not in use at present & have noted a "felt washer" at the top (dorsal) - see pic - but nothing at the bottom (ventrally)

I don't think there could have been a lower washer in the IXMOO due to the design (anatomy) - again see pic

My single FILCA currently has film in it so no peeking there right now

Also, I found this comment on a previous Rangefinder Forum

"As far as I'm aware all FILCA cassettes should have the felt ring at the top, but not all have the bottom felt ring (I was generalizing a bit when I referred to FILCAs have two rings in my other post about the mystery cassette). If the bottom of the centre reel is flat then there should be felt in the bottom of the container as a light seal. However some versions (and I currently have two like this) have a reel that extends through the bottom of the magazine like on an IXMOO and, in my collection at least, these don't have the felt ring in the bottom".

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54306

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Edited November 17, 2020 by romualdo

[Pyrogallol]

6 hours ago, romualdo said:

Just looked at my IXMOO that's not in use at present & have noted a "felt washer" at the top (dorsal) - see pic - but nothing at the bottom (ventrally)

I don't think there could have been a lower washer in the IXMOO due to the design (anatomy) - again see pic

My single FILCA currently has film in it so no peeking there right now

Also, I found this comment on a previous Rangefinder Forum

"As far as I'm aware all FILCA cassettes should have the felt ring at the top, but not all have the bottom felt ring (I was generalizing a bit when I referred to FILCAs have two rings in my other post about the mystery cassette). If the bottom of the centre reel is flat then there should be felt in the bottom of the container as a light seal. However some versions (and I currently have two like this) have a reel that extends through the bottom of the magazine like on an IXMOO and, in my collection at least, these don't have the felt ring in the bottom".

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54306

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Agree. I had in the past noted that some of my cassettes had felt in the bottom and some not. I have just been through half a dozen, most only have felt at the top, one has felt at both ends and one looks as if it has lost the felt at the bottom. They all work ok.

[willeica]

28 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Agree. I had in the past noted that some of my cassettes had felt in the bottom and some not. I have just been through half a dozen, most only have felt at the top, one has felt at both ends and one looks as if it has lost the felt at the bottom. They all work ok.

I have about 15 or so FILCAs. The only one which I have checked is the one which preserved a film for about 70 years. This has a felt ring at both ends. You can just about see this in Post 8 above at the bottom of the the component on the left. There is a similar one at the top of the component on the right. There are quite a few variations to be noted in the FILCA Bs which I have such as some having Ernst Leitz stamped on them and some not. I also have a FILCA A and 2 FILCA Cs. If I can find the time, I will go through the various ones I have and record the variations. It is the same with other Leitz/ Leica accessories such as rangefinders, ever ready cases and lens caps etc, where I have noted an amount of variation. This has sometimes led to discussion on the forum with people being concerned about whether the accessories they have are ‘genuine’. A lot of the variations which we see relate to the transition of Leitz from being a small production craft type firm to being a mass production industrialised type operation. I have discussed this with Jim Lager and others and they too have noted such variations. Leitz and Barnack in particular were constantly seeking how to improve their products, but there were also stylistic variations as well.

William 

Edited November 17, 2020 by willeica

[250swb]

I'd be worried about the quality of modern felt. I'm sure Leica will have made sure it's a type of felt that doesn't shed fibres, but how do you tell this in modern felt? You'd need the technical boffin who 'designed' it to answer and not the salesman. Would it be possible to reinvent the felt with a modern material that wasn't available then, such as thin nylon sheet or other plastic?

[wlaidlaw]

6 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I'd be worried about the quality of modern felt. I'm sure Leica will have made sure it's a type of felt that doesn't shed fibres, but how do you tell this in modern felt? You'd need the technical boffin who 'designed' it to answer and not the salesman. Would it be possible to reinvent the felt with a modern material that wasn't available then, such as thin nylon sheet or other plastic?

Steve, 

I am going to use silk velvet rather than felt, to avoid the fibre problem. Silk velvet will be equally good if not better at reducing friction than felt. Silk velvet rather than mercerised cotton velvet uses very long staple fibres, which makes it more stable. 

Wilson

Edited November 17, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[250swb]

Sounds good Wilson, but just a final thought, Teflon baking sheet?

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Sounds good Wilson, but just a final thought, Teflon baking sheet?

Steve, 

I have ordered a few sheets of new adhesive backed velvet via Amazon, as the small roll of this that I had, which is about 15 years old, has stuck itself into a solid ball. If that doesn't work, I will try teflon baking sheet but it is very thin. Maybe a double washer of velvet with a thin teflon washer above might be an answer. I thought of silicone baking sheet but it is a bit "squeaky" and would not, I think, work as a low friction washer. 

Wilson

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[Pyrogallol]

48 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Steve, 

I have ordered a few sheets of new adhesive backed velvet via Amazon, as the small roll of this that I had, which is about 15 years old, has stuck itself into a solid ball. If that doesn't work, I will try teflon baking sheet but it is very thin. Maybe a double washer of velvet with a thin teflon washer above might be an answer. I thought of silicone baking sheet but it is a bit "squeaky" and would not, I think, work as a low friction washer. 

Wilson

I can imagine that fitting a self adhesive circle into the bottom of a tube can be tricky, getting it stuck to the side of the tube as you try to manoeuvre it in place. I have that problem fitting new self adhesive linings to the inside edge of old Leica lens caps. I have some self adhesive sheet material that is used on top price hifi turntables that would probably be about right for the cassettes as well.