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M6 Loading


lmans

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My M6 developed a small problem yesterday while I was reloading. The spool to load the new leader is 'off' by just a bit. When I load the film, film on sprockets (not an issue) etc...the leader of the film should thread into the spool on the right side. But the spool is not aligned correctly so I have to manually turn it a bit to align it so the leader is fed in.  Ideas on why the take-up spool is askew a bit and to permanently re-align it? I had the same issue this morning as I was aligning. jim

Edited by lmans
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The spool is not synchronized with the sprocket, but has a friction clutch to slip and keep slight tension on the film as the diameter of the film wound on the spool increases with each frame taken up. So the spool may be at any orientation. Remember the spool actually turns back towards the sprocket (counter-clockwise from the bottom view) to wrap farther around the sprocket. It doesn't matter which slot of the spool takes the film leader. I've been loading my M6 since 1985 (and M4 since 1968), and just use the slot closest to the sprocket.

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13 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

The spool is not synchronized with the sprocket, but has a friction clutch to slip and keep slight tension on the film as the diameter of the film wound on the spool increases with each frame taken up. So the spool may be at any orientation. Remember the spool actually turns back towards the sprocket (counter-clockwise from the bottom view) to wrap farther around the sprocket. It doesn't matter which slot of the spool takes the film leader. I've been loading my M6 since 1985 (and M4 since 1968), and just use the slot closest to the sprocket.

Interesting....I was not aware of that. So if I load my film like I did the last two days (wasn't doing this in the past), and the film is not catching in the spool, what do I do? The film is on the sprockets but just not catching into the spool. So when I advance the film lever, the film itself doesn't advance. I have to manually adjust the film to make it into the spool, if that makes sense? jim

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8 minutes ago, lmans said:

Interesting....I was not aware of that. So if I load my film like I did the last two days (wasn't doing this in the past), and the film is not catching in the spool, what do I do? The film is on the sprockets but just not catching into the spool. So when I advance the film lever, the film itself doesn't advance. I have to manually adjust the film to make it into the spool, if that makes sense? jim

It is the sprockets that advance the film, not the spool.

 

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17 minutes ago, Matlock said:

It is the sprockets that advance the film, not the spool.

 

Hello Matlock,

It is actually you advancing the lever, that powers the spool, that gathers up the film, that turns the sprocket wheels, that counts how far the film moves, that tells the mechanism when to stop pulling the film out of the cartridge.

Best Regards,

Michael

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The way you are describing it it sounds like you either aren't pulling enough film out of the cassette, or somehow or other the film rewind lever hasn't sprung back up so the sprockets are still disengaged. Winding the film advance lever should cause both the rewind lever to spring back up and start to wind the film leader onto the spool.

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2 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Matlock,

It is actually you advancing the lever, that powers the spool, that gathers up the film, that turns the sprocket wheels, that counts how far the film moves, that tells the mechanism when to stop pulling the film out of the cartridge.

Best Regards,

Michael

Yes Michael but I was trying to keep things simple, Your answer sounds like the start of a Music Hall Song 😄. I think the instruction provide by Leica sum it up rather well. "Under ordinary conditions it does not matter if the film end projects through the three post assembly"

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10 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Yes Michael but I was trying to keep things simple, Your answer sounds like the start of a Music Hall Song 😄. I think the instruction provide by Leica sum it up rather well. "Under ordinary conditions it does not matter if the film end projects through the three post assembly"

Hello Matlock,

I work with the theory that "it is better to measure twice & to cut once".

The small amount of time & effort that it takes to include checking & "snugging up" before closing the back & putting on the bottom plate, as an everyday way to load film, is a small price to pay to better guarantee a new piece of film in the film gate when a person winds the film.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited by Michael Geschlecht
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5 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Matlock,

I work with the theory that "it is better to measure twice & to cut once".

The small amount of time & effort that it takes to include checking & "snugging up" before closing the back & putting on the bottom plate, as an everyday way to load film, is a small price to pay to better guarantee a new piece of film in the film gate when a person winds the film.

Best Regards,

Michael

I agree Michael but I have never found the need to "snugg up" in the 19 years that I have been using my M6 (and longer with my M4-P). Providing you ensure that the film cassette is fully home and the leader is drawn across correctly the base plate will do the rest. Obviously check the rewind lever just in case. 

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41 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Yes Michael but I was trying to keep things simple, Your answer sounds like the start of a Music Hall Song 😄. I think the instruction provide by Leica sum it up rather well. "Under ordinary conditions it does not matter if the film end projects through the three post assembly"

This might be what I am missing as you state '"Under ordinary conditions it does not matter if the film end projects through the three post assembly"'

The sprockets work....the film is on the sprockets...I have no issue with the sprockets. It is that the film leader is not catching into the spool....but perhaps it is because it doesn't need to. Perhaps as 250WSB states 'The way you are describing it it sounds like you either aren't pulling enough film out of the cassette, '....  For the two cases I am talking about, I simply needed to pull more film. The film leader was touching the spool, just not going into the spool. When I advanced the lever, the sprockets were working, the film just never advanced onto the spool. ....

So, once I get done with this roll, I will load another and get more film out to begin with. 

Funny, I haven't had this issue ever, except these past two days....so maybe it was just my error in not pulling enough film unknowingly..... jim

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Pull enough film out of the cassette so the end of the leader is all the way across the spool, and if it goes out beyond the other side a bit it doesn't matter. Wind the film advance lever one frame and you'll see the spool pull the film out of the cassette. Everything else will line up when you put the baseplate back on. It's a very clever and simple system and can usually only be defeated by being too precise, a bit more film fed into the spool than even the baseplate illustration shows is no bad thing. You'll still most likely get 37 or 38 exposures anyway even if it feels a bit wasteful loading the film that way.

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When I first got my M6 just over a year ago I was paranoid about loading it and making sure everything was what I thought was correct. Then I read the manual which provides a fairly ‘loose and quick’ explanation to my mind of how to load the film and I’ve stuck with that method ever since. 
 

The only thing I do is when I’ve popped the bottom cover on and advanced the film is to wind the reel back a turn or so until the film feels engaged. From then on I’ve never experienced a mis-loading of film. 

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42 minutes ago, erniethemilk said:

When I first got my M6 just over a year ago I was paranoid about loading it and making sure everything was what I thought was correct. Then I read the manual which provides a fairly ‘loose and quick’ explanation to my mind of how to load the film and I’ve stuck with that method ever since. 
 

The only thing I do is when I’ve popped the bottom cover on and advanced the film is to wind the reel back a turn or so until the film feels engaged. From then on I’ve never experienced a mis-loading of film. 

This is the key for me. The few times that I can recall where the film end had gotten loose after I thought it was engaged was due to not having enough tension on the film itself.

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Hello Everybody,

Many years ago I bought 1 (One) roll of film which I still use as a test roll. I use it to test this & that. I NEVER roll it all of the way back into the cartridge. BECAUSE: When rewinding: Once the film separates from the pick up (Things get immediately easier.) then I turn the rewind knob 3/4 turn. If you then open the back you will see that the film is mostly all into the cartridge with just enough left outside to grab the end & use it again.

Simple.

Easy.

Useful.

Not too pricey.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited by Michael Geschlecht
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On 11/16/2020 at 5:25 PM, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Everybody,

Many years ago I bought 1 (One) roll of film which I still use as a test roll. I use it to test this & that. I NEVER roll it all of the way back into the cartridge. BECAUSE: When rewinding: Once the film separates from the pick up (Things get immediately easier.) then I turn the rewind knob 3/4 turn. If you then open the back you will see that the film is mostly all into the cartridge with just enough left outside to grab the end & use it again.

Simple.

Easy.

Useful.

Not too pricey.

Best Regards,

Michael

Me too. 👍

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On 11/16/2020 at 5:25 PM, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Everybody,

Many years ago I bought 1 (One) roll of film which I still use as a test roll. I use it to test this & that. I NEVER roll it all of the way back into the cartridge. BECAUSE: When rewinding: Once the film separates from the pick up (Things get immediately easier.) then I turn the rewind knob 3/4 turn. If you then open the back you will see that the film is mostly all into the cartridge with just enough left outside to grab the end & use it again.

Simple.

Easy.

Useful.

Not too pricey.

Best Regards,

Michael

I do the same but it is an old EFKE KB14 with a cassette that has a removable top cap so, if I do inadvertently wind the film fully back, I can easily retrieve it.

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As an ex pro in theatre photography and news not rewinding the film all the way back into the cassette was the worst thing that could be done. The film should be cancelled, stopped, not available to use again in any way shape or form by any clouded judgement or error. If you invite a mistake it will happen one day, just get all the film into the cassette and stop the mistake before it happens.

Edited by 250swb
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19 hours ago, 250swb said:

As an ex pro in theatre photography and news not rewinding the film all the way back into the cassette was the worst thing that could be done. The film should be cancelled, stopped, not available to use again in any way shape or form by any clouded judgement or error. If you invite a mistake it will happen one day, just get all the film into the cassette and stop the mistake before it happens.

In the Military I was taught to tear off the thin bit of the leader but leave the thick bit out for ease of loading by the Darkroom Techs. No mistakes that way either.

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