You own M10M are you still considering a Q2M?

[SJH]

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Plus one from me on this - also it means I can use a 21mm for cityscapes, a 75mm on the street during lockdown and distancing etc. I’d just find the Q2M too much of a ‘niche within a niche’ and if I needed AF I’d just use my SL2 for not much more hassle in terms of size but better performance all round anyway plus an SL35 APO lens. 

The M10M therefore has far more appeal to me personally and on the subjective front I just enjoy the handling and feel of an M far more. It will also be interesting to see which sensor comes out on top, I have a hunch it will be the M10M as early reviews have indicated a few performance concerns I believe such as DPReview. 

[psmith2383]

I echo a lot of the members on who the q2 might appeal. I agree that for someone new to the Leica and wanted to also try the new monochrom sensor, that may be a way to go. If I have money to burn, of course I’d go for it. Over the years I’ve saved my money and bought some good M lenses and bodies and they are great tools. To be honest if I need a great small camera with a top-notch lens for backup I have a Fuji x100,  a conventional sensor that gives be good B&W when needed. For my work the q2 is just redundant  Leica has a pretty large international following , well-healed enthusiasts often willing to buy anything new from the company. Also collectors of special editions with limited production runs. Of course in an age of automated production and “craft” is almost a lost art, we recognize that some products we purchase are truly unique. But I’m middle class, farmer/teacher and I saved my egg money to buy the M10M Monochrom. A great innovation in photography and I can use it with my legacy lenses, which are always in style and do the job. I guess we can’t fault any company that tries to expand its products to increase sales in difficult times. 
 

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[SrMi]

12 hours ago, SJH said:

Plus one from me on this - also it means I can use a 21mm for cityscapes, a 75mm on the street during lockdown and distancing etc. I’d just find the Q2M too much of a ‘niche within a niche’ and if I needed AF I’d just use my SL2 for not much more hassle in terms of size but better performance all round anyway plus an SL35 APO lens. 

The M10M therefore has far more appeal to me personally and on the subjective front I just enjoy the handling and feel of an M far more. It will also be interesting to see which sensor comes out on top, I have a hunch it will be the M10M as early reviews have indicated a few performance concerns I believe such as DPReview. 

How do you measure which "sensor comes out on top"? IMO, looking at the system (lens + "sensor") is more relevant. BTW, Sean Reid has written an article that compares resolution and vignetting of M10M (28mm), Q2, and Q2M.

I believe that the Q and M cameras are sufficiently different (AF, EVF, form, lenses, ...) that those differences determine the choice between the two monochrome Leica cameras. Those who prefer Q2 to M10R will probably choose Q2M over M10M.

[SJH]

Firstly I do think the Q2M is a wonderful camera and superb value compared to the M10M and a 28mm 1.4, my point you’re referring to was orientated to the comments around reflections in the DPReview video and I believe Jono is looking to investigate further when he has another camera from the posts in the Q2 forum. Of course this is all being debated right now so I didn’t present it as a fact more that it will be interesting to see what happens over time. Also there have been posts around initial users feeling that the jump in B&W IQ isn’t as great as they had been expecting compared to their Q2.

I couldn’t agree more with your second paragraph I think if you were only going to use the M10M with a 28 or 35 then the Q2M actually has many advantages, however, the flexibility and shear IQ of using the 50mm APO and having a 28mm already swung it for me personally. Of course I totally respect that others have different requirements and use cases. 

[250swb]

15 minutes ago, SJH said:

 Also there have been posts around initial users feeling that the jump in B&W IQ isn’t as great as they had been expecting compared to their Q2.

 

It's the law of diminishing returns. I had the first two Monchrom M's, the first was a huge leap over converting to B&W with it's sibling the M9, the M246 had a slight advantage over converting a M240 file to B&W, and so on. As colour sensors get better it's harder for B&W sensors to outstrip them as the original Monochrom did.

There is also a lot of kidology going on that the true art and purity is in a B&W only workflow that gets you better photographs. You know the stuff, 'using a monochrome camera helps me see better in B&W', yeah like all B&W film photographers must have had some sort of vision defect to make it work. But a working knowledge of a tiny component of Photoshop or Lightroom or Silver Efex etc. will give most people 99% of what they need by converting a colour file, and for that extra 1% nobody viewing it will see the difference anyway.

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, 250swb said:

There is also a lot of kidology going on that the true art and purity is in a B&W only workflow that gets you better photographs. You know the stuff, 'using a monochrome camera helps me see better in B&W', yeah like all B&W film photographers must have had some sort of vision defect to make it work. But a working knowledge of a tiny component of Photoshop or Lightroom or Silver Efex etc. will give most people 99% of what they need by converting a colour file, and for that extra 1% nobody viewing it will see the difference anyway.

I’m one of those who shot b/w film for 40 years.  The Monochrom workflow benefit is real to me, but not exactly as you describe. It’s simply that I know I have to shoot in b/w, just like when I loaded Tri-X in my M.  So I’m not wasting time and diluting my efforts by looking for color pics, which is tempting with a digital camera since any picture can be color or b/w.  
 

I used to scoff at the notion of a Monochrom for that reason, insisting here that I surely had enough willpower and concentration using a traditional digital camera to act as if I had b/w film loaded, to look for b/w pics (the dreaded ‘see’ in b/w characterization) without distraction. But after actually using a Monochrom for a while, I had to admit that it’s not the same mindset as being ‘forced’ to shoot b/w only.  Maybe that’s because I gave up film in 2009 when I transitioned to digital, and began incorporating color into my print repertoire for the first time. I guess I got a bit lazy in my habits. The Monochrom got me back to shooting less, and being more focused. Simple as that, for me.  I don’t think my pics are necessarily any better as a result; just a change in mindset, more akin to b/w film days. 
 

Jeff

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jeff S

[250swb]

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

So I’m not wasting time and diluting my efforts by looking for color pics, which is tempting with a digital camera since any picture can be color or b/w.  
 

To anybody, armed with your colour camera and a plan just put your B&W head on when going out the front door.

[Likaleica]

21 hours ago, psmith2383 said:

I echo a lot of the members on who the q2 might appeal. I agree that for someone new to the Leica and wanted to also try the new monochrom sensor, that may be a way to go. If I have money to burn, of course I’d go for it. Over the years I’ve saved my money and bought some good M lenses and bodies and they are great tools. To be honest if I need a great small camera with a top-notch lens for backup I have a Fuji x100,  a conventional sensor that gives be good B&W when needed. For my work the q2 is just redundant  Leica has a pretty large international following , well-healed enthusiasts often willing to buy anything new from the company. Also collectors of special editions with limited production runs. Of course in an age of automated production and “craft” is almost a lost art, we recognize that some products we purchase are truly unique. But I’m middle class, farmer/teacher and I saved my egg money to buy the M10M Monochrom. A great innovation in photography and I can use it with my legacy lenses, which are always in style and do the job. I guess we can’t fault any company that tries to expand its products to increase sales in difficult times. 
 

That's a lot of eggs!

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, 250swb said:

To anybody, armed with your colour camera and a plan just put your B&W head on when going out the front door.

I fully agree.  My comment was only to give the counter-argument, for me, to your outright (and typically sarcastic) dismissal.

Jeff

[Anakronox]

I owned a Q2 but never really got on with it.  I like the idea of the Q2M and would probably shoot it for a couple of weeks before going back to the M10M.  It’s just more practical for me and a far more versatile camera. 

[Guest BlackBarn]

11 hours ago, 250swb said:

yeah like all B&W film photographers must have had some sort of vision defect to make it work

Yep...a lot of people take this misconception of what about the b/w  blah blah  of the past. Well it was a b/w media world in those days. Everybody reading papers watching tv were all use to seeing media in b/w....that was all that was available, the normal, that how eyes were calibrated. For the x number of year the eyes have been familiarized with seeing media in colour - matching our colored world - and have reduced their ability to perceive in b/w. 

For b/w you only have to be focused on tonal values and tonal transitions as opposed to tints and saturation of colour. When you take a colour photo and convert it to b/w, the majority see in colour tints and wonder what the black and white photo will look like. That’s not shooting in  b/w but in colour and just taking the easy way of seeing in b/w without acquiring the skill or sensitivity of eye. 

I am fairly certain that when shooting in colour very few photographers go out and look at the reds, blues, greens, yellows, and purples etc and can recognize the common tonal values across those colours. They are simply seduced by the colour and some believe the PP is all that’s needed. Anybody who doesn’t believe that take a look outside and try and match tonal values across the colour tints...attach chart below to show what it looks like.

For sure, there is a point made about differences between the final image when converted from colour to that say  taken with a dedicated Mono variant after PP.  To my eyes converting to b/w from the SL2 compared to the 10m, the 10m wins every time. If you can’t perceive in B/W you are hardly likely to magically see the differences when comparing in post processing.  However comparing is not the point,  it’s asking if there is a different skill set required for shooting in b/w as opposed to colour?  The answer is absolutely and for me Leica provide the best tools for the b/w photographer  to develop and enjoy that skill set with their  Mono’s.

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[louys]

On 11/12/2020 at 11:42 AM, FrozenInTime said:

But the Q is larger than a M and heavy ...

Yes, but a false comparison. For the Q2 has a lens permanently attached. Adding any Leica lens to the M will result in a weight greater than that of the Q2.

Edited November 19, 2020 by louys

[FrozenInTime]

Not like I'm trying to pull a Trump victory out of a defeat , but I believe this combination is a feather lighter that a Q2.

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Long ago, I should have just written the Q2 is a full size camera.

[SJH]

Interesting video on the Red Dot Forum and in summing up between the M10M & Q2M he comments that the M10M has better IQ overall, to be clear he's not saying the difference is hugely better but side by side he feels the M10M wins it.

 

[louys]

11 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

Not like I'm trying to pull a Trump victory out of a defeat , but I believe this combination is a feather lighter that a Q2.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Long ago, I should have just written the Q2 is a full size camera.

Touché 

What lens is that?

[FrozenInTime]

1 hour ago, louys said:

Touché 

What lens is that?

Weighing in at 70g , it is a MS Optics 28/2 Apoqualia , from Japan via Bellamy Hunt JCH.

The latest version is here  https://www.japancamerahunter.com/product/ms-optics-apoqualia-28mm-f2-veriii/

 

[Ken Abrahams]

I prefer to manual focus and choose perspectives from individual lenses. Maybe in six years I could see myself using this camera. 

[louys]

56 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Weighing in at 70g , it is a MS Optics 28/2 Apoqualia , from Japan via Bellamy Hunt JCH.

The latest version is here  https://www.japancamerahunter.com/product/ms-optics-apoqualia-28mm-f2-veriii/

 

It’s not a Leica lens, then. 😊

Edited November 20, 2020 by louys

[louys]

🙂

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Look here: Leica M

[psmith2383]

I started this thread thinking out loud about who would want or need the new Q2M. I posted my thoughts about this new addition to the Leica product line. This was one of my first posts on the forum and was surprised at the how my thoughts led to such diverse directions, often informing me  as well as helping me understand how diverse we are in our perception of something like a new camera model. From a non-photographic point of view I was pleased how a group of people, passionate about their art and the choices of tools we use, carry on a conversation with civility, respect, and at times humor. Thanks for your candor, new information and helping me grow in understanding. The Q2M’s not for me but I see who might use this tool to further their own goals.

 

 

 

 

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