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Leica TL2 greenish tint


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 Hi,

I have purchased a brand new Leica TL2 on Ebay from a reputable seller and I was happy to try it out and compare the results with my very old Panasonic GF3. I'm not a professional photographer (I have no special software nor do post-processing of pictures, I use ooc JPGs)! I also bought the Elmarit 18mm 2.8 TL lens.

As the day passed and it was getting darker I have noticed that the indoor pictures (with artificial light) look more and more yellowish/greenish, more noticably in the shadows. Switching to video, it became even more noticable. I tried to change the white balance, but had no luck (AWB looked exactly like the Tungsten option, so I think the camera "guessed" the situation correctly. The higher numerical values looked more and more orange/reddish, but I could not set the temperature to any value to produce even a little close to white). I also tried to change the film type, with no luck. I had just updated the firmware from 1.4 to 1.5, but there was no change. I downloaded a few pictures to my iPhone, but they looked same on the camera LCD and iPhone screen (to rule out any LCD problem).

On the other hand, with a very few exceptions, my GF3 produced correct WB and whites (when it was off it was towards reddish, but that happened in very special cases), and I even tried my iPhone XS, which was also correct (very close to what the GF3 produced). Again, I looked at them not as a professional, so I'm sure those have plenty of inaccuracies, but the Leica ones are noticable to the naked eye of an amateur, on the LCD screens.

I searched a lot for similar issues, but could not find any mention for the TL2. I found greenish tint topics for M cameras, with the advice to either use post-processing or that it is the Leica look. The tint is not a nice one in my personal opinion, e.g. not towards sepia or some warm color, that I see sometimes attributed to Leica look, it's somehow a shallow yellow/green tint producing unpleasant results.

Question: is this a camera defect, or is this an expected behavior and the advice is to use post-processing for every shot I take?

Disclaimer/background: I got this camera as a birthday present, and it was a very expensive present, especially since I didn't change cameras for a long time and I'm not a professional, just an enthusiastic amateur. I really liked the design of it and the community around Leica, and I was not disappointed with those aspects. I really had high hopes for the images, though, especially for low light situations, to finally replace my 7-year old GF3, and I was very sad and shocked to see that it underperforms it with the colors (the noise levels with high ISOs are much better on Leica, so it doesn't seem to have an overall technical defect). The weather is not so good now to try it out in natural sunlight, but I can't imagine keeping this knowing that my GF3, or even my iPhone produces better results in low lights with indoor shots.

Thanks for reading and the advice!

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If you don't process your images at all, you will remain disappointed. An OOC JPG reflects  the interpretation of  the engineer who did the settings, is by definition subjective and will differ by the camera used.
The type of light will also have a strong impact. Fluorescents, for instance, will often produce horrible results. 
Given the lack of complaints in this highly critical forum, the TL2 does not appear to offend the taste of many users here.

My best advice is to get a program like ON1 ( They offer full editing, but also easy presets and good online tutorials) and start adjusting your images. You'll find it highly satisfactory.

Failing that, use the "grey card" option to set white balance - it will make the image quite cool, but white will be white.

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Thanks for the answer jaapv.

"Given the lack of complaints in this highly critical forum, the TL2 does not appear to offend the taste of many users here."

That is exactly why I asked my question, since I don't see complaints. That leads to two conclusions:

1) my TL2 is physically defective, and produces different results from what a non-defective TL2 would. If I get a different TL2 with the same lens, JPGs would not look like this.

2) my TL2 is completely fine, and every other TL2 user on this forum can confirm that it produces greenish/yellowish results compared to even smartphones.

In case 1), I would send it back to get a replacement. In case 2), I would definitely learn more about post-processing and adjust all of my pictures. I have no problem with that. But if it is case 1) and I keep this TL2, I would have a defective camera thinking that it is just a different taste.

I will definitely try out some product (I think Lightroom subscription came with the camera) to see if this can be adjusted to my satisfaction or I can reveal any defects. In the meantime, if there is anyone who has ooc JPG sample shots on flickr or somewhere with low-light conditions in a white room, I would appreciate if I can take a look (I couldn't find low-light ooc samples for the TL2).

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Peter, welcome to the forum. I understand your disappointment. With such a fine camera you will only do it justice by learning and applying basic image processing. Then you will be able to capture RAW (DNG) files giving you a wide choice of routes to perfection; or at least to your personal satisfaction. But do not expect miracles immediately.  There is a learning curve. Help is available here.

If you do not have a grey card, find a sheet of the purest white paper and any pleasingly coloured object and shoot them in bright sunlight with appropriate WB settings, followed by repeat shootings in shade, then on a cloudy day again with appropriate WB settings. See how they look on a calibrated monitor. If they are wildly unreal, report your findings to the vendor. It could be a faulty camera. If they are only slightly off-colour, that is easily corrected, which is normal for most users.

Photoshop Elements is an affordable solution which, if learned, may be all you need. Years ago that is how I started before upgrading to Photoshop and Lightroom. You do not need to do that in one jump.

Many photographers rely on AWB. Only those, like me, who have a need for accurate colour fidelity, go the extra mile to achieve uncontaminated colours. AWB is normally remarkably good, needing only mild tweaking to be truly satisfying. I hope this advice helps you.

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It may not be the camera. I have a TL2 and no problem in artificial or low light so far. Some indoor lights, fluorescent and LED on the other hand can really vary in the quality of light they output. Especially those for domestic use in homes or cheaper fixtures. Even when white balance is set correctly I have seen a green color spike with some supposedly professional grade LED lights. It all depends on the CRI of the lights in question. I would not expect consistent results with most LED lights typically used for interior lighting in homes, restaurants and bars etc.

Just a quick google search, but you may find these links helpful:

https://www.dpmag.com/how-to/tip-of-the-week/removing-the-green-spike/

https://www.lumens.com/light-bulb-facts/color-rendering-index.html

Edited by J12
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Thanks for the excellent replies, I went through them. I also made further tests with different light conditions (natural daylight, although very cloudy).

I think my initial testing and problem description could have been better if I am a more experienced photographer, but in my case it was half testing half photography learning.

First, my tests in chronological order and my conclusion based on your inputs. Tl;dr also at the end :)

I downloaded the pictures to my iPhone (easiest way to check them) and noticed that the daylight shots seem better (less yellowish) on the iPhone screen, compared to the camera LCD. At that point I thought that the camera might be correct, but the LCD could have some problem. I found topics on this forum that indicated problems with camera LCDs. Side-by-side, the iPhone screen looked "whiter" while the camera had the tint. I found the monitor color adjustment setting, which changed the screen a little bit, but not so much.

I then remembered that when I bought my iPhone (XS) I found it to be more yellowish than the previous one, and I went into the settings and changed the hue to blue. And ever since then I used my phone with that setting, which to my eye looked more natural (many reported the same experience after the X: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250699527). I changed it back to the default now, and voila, the two screens were identical (but little yellowish to me).

With this relevation, I checked the pictures with the low-light condition (on my iPhone with my custom hue setting), and they looked to have less tint than what I experienced initially (and what gave me the shock yesterday). Now, I would say, it's within the range of what I see as Leica JPG engine setting by the Leica engineers, although they still have a slightly different hue than the pictures from my GF3, from yesterday.

I then looked at old pictures taken by the GF3 and I noticed that in different low-light conditions (different bulbs, amount of light, etc) it rendered JPGs with very different results (although mostly with way off WB), it's just this one specific room I tried yesterday seems to give me the WB and hue I like more in GF3 than TL2. It seems to be correctable with post-processing since it's not affecting a wide range of scenarios. I tried the Leica with very low but natural light and the results were excellent (again, on the iPhone screen).

Conclusion, tl;dr: it seems I was used to the screen hues and tints of my iPhone (with custom setting since the beginning) and old Panasonic so much to feel that the Leica oocs are way off, but in reality they are just a little bit different than what I see as "reality", and only in specific artificial light conditions so far. These findings lead me to think that my unit has no physical defects. I will also put the effort to learn more post-processing and give a try to the suggested programs. Thanks again!

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Thank you for the update. Your findings seem sound. If you wish to see your Leica files at their best, please consider buying a good graphics monitor which you can recalibrate at set intervals. You will be amazed at the difference compared with tiny  monitors on smartphones or cameras. Good luck. Remember you have colleagues here willing to help.

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I can only add:An iPhone or a camera LCD are not a way to judge an image from a camera on the level of the TL2. You really need to buy a decent screen -it does not have to be a crazily expensive one-for your computer and a basic calibration tool. Start shooting raw and use one of the many postprocessing programs. A few have been recommended here. Don’t try and learn by experiment, that would be very frustrating. This was the reason I recommended ON1, their website videos are excellent. 
As David said, don’t hesitate to ask, we are here to help. 

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The evening (+ low light) came again and I have to make another post :)

I installed ON1 to tweak the DNGs, but yet again I feel something is off. I will add the sample pictures this time so you can judge if everything is okay with my TL2.

It's the greenish tint that returned, and I think it's connected to high ISOs/shadows. Somehow the green in those areas are too much and makes the whole picture green. The yellowish tint in some cases, I'm speculating, could be red tones getting extra green. I was looking at the histogram of the picture and the blue channel seems to be off a little, like it's leaning to the left and not straight like the other colors (very unprofessional description).

Switching to video, the green tint is very obvious.

I uploaded the files to a website I've been working on personally (unrelated to photography).

iPhone XS: https://unreleased.tech/IMG_2411.jpg

GF3 ooc JPG: https://unreleased.tech/P1220156.JPG

GF3 ooc RW2: https://unreleased.tech/P1220156.RW2

TL2 ooc DNG: https://unreleased.tech/L1240131.DNG

TL2 ooc video: https://unreleased.tech/L1240130.MP4

The wall is white and there is a standing lamp emitting a warm yellowish/orange-ish color. The iPhone is closer to the tone while the GF3 white-balances it to white (to my impression). And the TL2 is ... you can decide. With these samples, let me know if it is really just me, or this is a defect. If it's really just me, let me know if you think it is possible to remove the green tone in the DNG (+ how it can be removed from the video).

 

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2 hours ago, nthpeter said:

The evening (+ low light) came again and I have to make another post :)

I installed ON1 to tweak the DNGs, but yet again I feel something is off. I will add the sample pictures this time so you can judge if everything is okay with my TL2.

It's the greenish tint that returned, and I think it's connected to high ISOs/shadows. Somehow the green in those areas are too much and makes the whole picture green. The yellowish tint in some cases, I'm speculating, could be red tones getting extra green. I was looking at the histogram of the picture and the blue channel seems to be off a little, like it's leaning to the left and not straight like the other colors (very unprofessional description).

Switching to video, the green tint is very obvious.

I uploaded the files to a website I've been working on personally (unrelated to photography).

iPhone XS: https://unreleased.tech/IMG_2411.jpg

GF3 ooc JPG: https://unreleased.tech/P1220156.JPG

GF3 ooc RW2: https://unreleased.tech/P1220156.RW2

TL2 ooc DNG: https://unreleased.tech/L1240131.DNG

TL2 ooc video: https://unreleased.tech/L1240130.MP4

The wall is white and there is a standing lamp emitting a warm yellowish/orange-ish color. The iPhone is closer to the tone while the GF3 white-balances it to white (to my impression). And the TL2 is ... you can decide. With these samples, let me know if it is really just me, or this is a defect. If it's really just me, let me know if you think it is possible to remove the green tone in the DNG (+ how it can be removed from the video).

 

TBH, the Leica DNG, when opened in Photoshop is by far the best   and has no green cast, on a calibrated screen

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I was able to edit the DNG shot of the wall to make it look like the one from the GF3 (realistic), but for that I had to reduce saturation (and change temperature, but that is I assume the Leica engineers style).

And then here are a few ooc JPGs that show the yellowish tint. With more test shots my impression is that shadows in pictures in low light and video tend to come out green, and shots with 3 different types of lamps we have at home as light sources tend to come out unrealistic yellowish (too much green or lack of red).

Looking at the TL2 ooc, other than being unrealistic in color (both me and my girlfriend agree on that one, I did a blind test with her and she picked the more realistic all the time = GF3), I can't imagine being able to remove the tint if I had taken DNGs and RAWs. If I change the color temp. then the tint will take a different color, if I remove saturation then colors will be gone as well. The tinted TL2 pictures look like they carry less information, maybe less dynamic range? Less color? Hard to tell since I don't know the correct terms :) 

See the pictures below. It's easy to guess which ones are from which camera.

Although it produces excellent pictures in daylight, my GF3 takes more realistic colors in low light and it can take acceptable video (no green shadows and predominantly green noise, dark areas are simply dark with noise from all three colors). Since it seems the majority of you point out that there is no reason to believe that the camera is malfunctioning (sensor, lens, any part of it), I'm thinking about getting a refund.

Although you might think I like the GF3 too much and I'm biased, I don't think that is the case. The GF3 is getting old and has a lot of wear and tear, it produces much less raw data and starts to look awful at ISO-800. It has an old and smaller sensor. I definitely need a new camera, but I don't think it's the TL2.

Lamp:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Stuffed animals at the table:

 

 

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

There we have the solution: The GF3 file has a magenta cast... Look at the light switch and fridge - they are way off. All you are seeing is the fluorescents.

Yes, seems like you are correct. I played around with these JPGs and I was able to match both "looks", GF3 -> TL2 and TL2 -> GF3 and both -> completely white. What I did this time was to move the "tint" slider in ON1 also, not just the temperature slider. By using both sliders together, I was actually able to change all of my pictures to any light condition and any camera look, it's a good lesson and skill :) 

At this stage, I would guess the GF3 has slight to moderate magenta tint ooc, and the TL2 has moderate to strong green tint ooc, basically the opposite end. When playing around with the sliders, I had to move the tint very little with the GF3 while TL2 needed to go all the way to achieve realism.

It's a tough decision. In one hand, it's handy to have moderately inaccurate, warm ooc JPGs when I want to use pictures instantly and don't want to spend too much time with development, the TL2 feels like each and every shot needs post-processing due to the strong green. The video straight from the camera is same, the GF3 has a warm feeling to it and if I'm lazy I can just upload it to YouTube, while the video on TL2 looks like made in the movie Matrix with a green filter. Especially so because all of my low-light scernarios involve warm yellow/orange light-bulbs and family settings, where a warm feeling is desired. If I take 200 indoor shots on a family holiday I basically have to spend 5-10 minutes with each to reach an acceptable level :(

So you most probably are right, it is a Leica choice and not a defect.

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There is a simple solution: profile your camera. Gt an X-rite Colorchecker Passport and create your own profile.

https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/colorchecker-classic-family/colorchecker-passport-photo-2

 

from your description, your computer monitor is in desperate need of calibration too. 

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6 hours ago, nthpeter said:

... If I take 200 indoor shots on a family holiday I basically have to spend 5-10 minutes with each to reach an acceptable level :(

...

No; that is not necessary. Do it once and save as a specifically named user profile.

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Thanks for the suggestions. I did more testing and reading about white balance in general, the role of "tint" and color casts by fluorescent lights. Based on the tests it seems that the TL2's white-balance, if I want accurate whites, is actually closer to what it should be than the GF3's. The temperature is much closer, but it adds the greenish tint - probably tricked by the light. The GF3 also adds tint (the magenta), so that is also tricked, and the temperature is more off towards warm colors. This based on selecting a white spot in ON1 and how the sliders jump from the ooc temperture and tint sliders in the TL2 and GF3 raw files.

So it is just a question of white-balance, and a question of if I want true whites and accurate colors or want to have a little warmth to the pictures (but not accurate whites) to have the same feeling. Very interesting findings.

Based on this I think I'll definitely keep the TL2 due to its superior performance. And adjusting the white-balance is just one click (picking a white spot on the picture) or, as you suggested, a simple copy from another picture from the same scene. I also learned to use the greycard, giving better results. I'm thinking of buying a cheapish white, grey, black card for starters, and focus on this aspect of white-balancing, and maybe later on actual accurate colors from the x-rite passport.

Thanks again all your help, suggestions and encouragement. I'm feeling more happy with the TL2 now :)

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I tend to use my TL2 for architecture outdoors but don’t recall consistent colour casts shooting interiors. I shoot jpeg + RAW so usually stick to Auto WB.

If it is consistent you could try using a colour checker/grey card as Jaap suggests to create a  camera profile but also remember there are 2 memories in the WB selection menu to save your own numeric value. If you wanted quick jpegs to view/send straightaway you could play around with entering your own WB value till you were happier with the jpegs and then save this as one of the 2 user positions in the WB menu. You could then just switch from auto WB to this user setting when necessary.

 

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4 minutes ago, NigelG said:

I tend to use my TL2 for architecture outdoors but don’t recall consistent colour casts shooting interiors. I shoot jpeg + RAW so usually stick to Auto WB.

If it is consistent you could try using a colour checker/grey card as Jaap suggests to create a  camera profile but also remember there are 2 memories in the WB selection menu to save your own numeric value. If you wanted quick jpegs to view/send straightaway you could play around with entering your own WB value till you were happier with the jpegs and then save this as one of the 2 user positions in the WB menu. You could then just switch from auto WB to this user setting when necessary.

 

It's unfortunately the tint value that seems to be consistently off with the lights I have at home. I didn't test it with other indoor light conditions yet since it's still pandemic and we stay at home :). If I set the WB manually to the perfect numerical temperature value the pictures still get the tint, so the green/magenta axis is off towards green. I'm actually confused now, when I use the greycard instead of a numeric temperature value, does that affect the tint also? So both the green/magenta axis and blue/yellow axis? Or the greycard only affects the blue/yellow temperature value? Is there any way to affect the built-in green/magenta slider?

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