LocalHero1953 Posted October 31, 2020 Share #1 Posted October 31, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) Has anyone got any lessons and advice to pass on about inkjet printing on Japanese papers? It would be an Epson P800 in my case. Does it require special handling? Front feed or normal? Platen, thickness? I assume it is Matt Black not Photo Black. Or are there gloss varieties? How do the various paper types differ? What sort of images are they good for? Colour, mono? A quick search shows that I can get Awagami papers in the UK. Are there other brands to look for? I shall get an Awagami test pack, but with the limited number of sheets, I'd welcome any advice that would stop me ruining them before they've had a chance to show what they can do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here Washi / Japanese papers for inkjet printing - experience?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pedaes Posted October 31, 2020 Share #2 Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said: printing on Japanese papers? More interesting question is why would you want to? There are superb European papers. Will you be able to get paper profiles that will work with english language computers? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, pedaes said: More interesting question is why would you want to? There are superb European papers. Will you be able to get paper profiles that will work with english language computers? No, that's a boring question. I just want to explore and experiment. I enjoy using Canson papers already. And I'm not nationalistic about papers. Do paper profiles speak a particular language? If so, here's hoping my Epson printer can still remember Japanese. Edited October 31, 2020 by LocalHero1953 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted October 31, 2020 Share #4 Posted October 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said: I just want to explore and experiment Enjoy! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nowhereman Posted October 31, 2020 Share #5 Posted October 31, 2020 Paul - No experience with washi paper but I found this huge book, Vanishing Existence, by Kosuke Okahara fascinating: see flip-through video. A few years ago, I found the following information: Quote Size: 100 x 70 cm Pages: 40 pages. Paper: Kozo paper, Awagami Cover: Shindanshi paper Backside of Cover: Nishinouchi purely handmade paper from Ibaraki prefecture known for it's strength. Even if it's wet, the drawing or writing does not run in water, the paper amazingly hold what written or drawn on the paper. This is the paper used for Tokugawa shogun era for their important documents too. This paper makes the cover page durable even with Japanese binding. If I recall correctly, Okahara made four copies, selling for $3,000. Kozo paper is made from mulberry bark — but I don't know if Kozo is a type of washi paper or if mulberry bark is simple one of the possible ingredient of washi.____________________Frog Leaping photobook Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasG Posted October 31, 2020 Share #6 Posted October 31, 2020 Kozo is one of the standard papers for the printing of Japanese woodblock prints for centuries. Since for this process the printing inks are water based, the Kozo needs a special sizing, and this step is the secret for success, probably one simply has to try (and spend money....) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nowhereman Posted October 31, 2020 Share #7 Posted October 31, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) ^ I assume that this type of sizing has already been done on the Awagami paper, as the kozo papers are listed as suitable for inkjet prints, but of course that can be confirmed by the supplier or Awagami.____________________Frog Leaping photobook Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share #8 Posted October 31, 2020 A search on this forum showed that @Stuart Richardsonhad some experience, so I'm hoping he will respond! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted October 31, 2020 Share #9 Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) Hi Paul. The Awagami papers are lovely and distinctive. No Western papers have similar characteristics, as they are made from entirely different materials. I love Hahnemühle, but their Rice paper and bamboo papers are nowhere near as nice as the Awagami. That said, they are very different in feel. The Awagami papers in general are better suited to display without frames, and work very well in bookmaking or scroll making. They are extremely thin in comparison to Western papers, but far far stronger. The washi fibers are really long, and that gives them a lot more structural integrity and their lack of density and stiffness means they are less susceptible to kinking and damage from handling. Their thinness means that they can be more difficult to handle in printing, however. My main experience with them is for my own work, as they odd enough that most clients do not really know what to do with them. I did my MFA work on a 45gsm Awagami paper, printing up to 170x220 across two sheets, and made a book along side it. They are all matte black and have a lower contrast range than western papers. Some are semi transparent. Some are solid. I recommend buying the Awagami sample pack. Bamboo is more like a western paper, but it has a pleasant construction paper feel...so does Inbe Thick White. The "white" papers are rather warm, and the natural papers are quite yellow. I have not used the P800, so I am not sure how it will do with media handling, but the thinner papers tend to swell with the ink since they are very absorbent. In the P9000, they would have channel marks from the printers vacuum, and those do not really go away unless you use a heat press. I did find that I could tame them in the big prints by rolling the images shortly after printing in between a sheet of acid free tissue paper and a used paper roll that had a bit of cushion (Fuji paper rolls use a nice, softer cardboard than most companies, and their roll has a bit of give, which helped here). This is more of a problem with the thinnest papers...70gsm and below. You can lower the inkload, but then you lose more contrast and density. If your printer has a vacuum, you might have to lower the suction. If it uses rollers, you might need a carrier sheet, but probably not if you are careful. As I said above, the papers are very strong, they just tend to be quite thin, so they can fold or crease more easily. Head strikes are unlikely since they are so thin. Careful with jams...the paper is very strong and could cause problems. This is pretty much the same stuff they use to make shoji screens...thin but strong. Nothing like a 90gsm western paper. I am attaching two photos from the installation of my grad show. I am linking the video below. https://vimeo.com/292201708 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited October 31, 2020 by Stuart Richardson 4 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314672-washi-japanese-papers-for-inkjet-printing-experience/?do=findComment&comment=4071655'>More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share #10 Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) Thank you, @Stuart Richardson, that's very helpful advice, and I look forward to trying these papers. I can see I'll have to learn some bookmaking skills - the thinness of the paper seems to make it very suited to books. I'll order that sample pack - and hope it arrives before relockdown. And thanks for the video flip through of your book - it looks like it would well repay plenty of time perusing it, and handling it, in reality. Edited October 31, 2020 by LocalHero1953 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted October 31, 2020 Share #11 Posted October 31, 2020 Thank you Paul! You are welcome to pm or email me as well, should you have any specific questions. Though they do not suit every print, I think the washi papers are wonderful when they fit the work. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share #12 Posted November 5, 2020 I ordered two sample packs of papers, so I could run through one pack in ignorance, and the second pack with a bit more experience. Here is the result of printing the first pack with 18 random images (the duplicate pair of hands in the middle has been accidentally included, printed on Canson Rag Photographique). They were printed on an Epson P800, using the front feed tray, and with printer colour profiles downloaded from the Awagami website. Monochrome prints were made with the Epson Advanced Black & White defaul settings. (Sorry for the wrist strap protruding into the image!). Awagami also provide paper thicknesses which I used to set the printer. I printed a number of the images also on Canson Rag Photographique, as a generic 'western' matt paper. My early, unreliable, comments and conclusions so far: - Canson Rag Photographique wins hands down in terms of bright colour, contrast, punch and (mono & colour) detail. Obviously, as I learn more, I might improve contrast, perhaps colour punch, but probably not detail. - One cannot ignore the texture and feel of the Japanese paper. It reminds you every time that physical prints are different from screen images, in looks, light on the surface and feel in the hand. The Japanese paper prints, machine or hand made, have a more organic feel compared to the Canson equivalent. The Bamboo papers in this pack are the closest to the Canson in this sense, the thin papers, and deckle-edged Bizan papers are most alien. As Stuart wrote above, it would be a waste to frame these papers behind glass. - Delicate colours and tonal transitions are better served by the Japanese paper. In the image of the girl with red lipstick (Kozo White Medium), the skin texture looks better than in the Canson equivalent, even though the latter has a slightly greater contrast and punch. The pink berry also works well. - The thin papers are fascinating in their possibilities, whether single layer or double layer (which have to be carefully peeled to remove the pulp backing). The Mitsumata White Double Layer (Taj Mahal in mist, bottom right) is lovely and translucent in the hand, but how to mount and display it? The Kozo Double Layer (the dark figure with text, top left) needs more careful handling and peeling than I could give it, and it curled badly; it held ink well, though, to give a solid tone, despite the translucency. The thin single layer papers would be good in books. - The Unryu papers have distinctive surface reflectivity, almost like a timber wafer board. I've seen comments that it works well with portraits (e.g. the girl, centre left, monochrome). I'm not convinced - it just looks like skin blemishes! - In all cases but one the front feed worked well; the exception was when I forgot the Epson P800's common (design) fault of catching on the back support while feeding in. (I normally deal with this by pressing fingers on the rear support till the paper is in place). No head strikes, no blotches. A more general preliminary observation: that these papers are better with naturalistic subjects: landscapes and people. Buildings and artefacts are better with the Canson Rag Photographique. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314672-washi-japanese-papers-for-inkjet-printing-experience/?do=findComment&comment=4074489'>More sharing options...
250swb Posted November 6, 2020 Share #13 Posted November 6, 2020 Thank you very much Paul, an interesting thread. I've just ordered a sample pack! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share #14 Posted November 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, 250swb said: Thank you very much Paul, an interesting thread. I've just ordered a sample pack! I will be very interested to read your conclusions. These investigations are an antidote to lockdown. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share #15 Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) I have just finished test prints on my second sample pack from Awagami. Building on what I learned from the first pack, I: - Printed photographs of people, landscape and nature, avoiding buildings and manmade objects. - Looked at how well borderless printing works. - Looked at how well the thin papers stood up to dense coloured images (lots of ink), as well as sparse images with lots of light background. - Printed on both sides of the Inbe Thin paper; although not marked on the pack as suitable for double sided, I'd seen remarks online that the Inbe paper was designed for double sided. Further conclusions: - Borderless printing presented no problems (I didn't expect any, but worth checking). - The Murakumo Kozo Select thin papers held ink well (dark blue image of man in the centre, and B&W girl singing top right corner) showed the image on the reverse, but with little obvious lateral seepage. The Kozo Thin papers showed even less (landscape with two rocky islands, centre left, two dancing couples, top centre). - The Inbe Thin White, which I printed double sided with dense coloured images (girl in the red jacket, centre right) showed no obvious sign of the images on the respective reverses. Common sense says this needs further examination, but if it remains the case, then this looks like a good paper for photobooks. - The double layered papers remain challenging, both to peel and mount. My experience from the first batch was repeated: the Mitsumata White Double Layered (landscape of Helvellyn, bottom left) was fairly easy to separate with care. The Kozo Double Layered is tricky and easy to tear as you start to peel, and remains curled (lovers in dark red, bottom right). I understand these papers are designed to be made into Japanese hanging scrolls. - I tried two different image types with the Unryu paper (the one with the waferboard-like surface texture). A borderless print of a wildflower garden (top right): the paper pattern was lost entirely; I can see no benefit to this paper for such an all-over image. The clunky vignette of pink plants (lower left): the paper adds something here because the texture is visible in the un-inked or light colour parts. This is not really the sort of photography I do, but I can see a benefit to the paper here. - Generalising from the foregoing conclusion, all these papers show themselves at their best where the texture of the paper can be seen. I would be inclined to print dense colour images with a large border, or use these papers for images where there are plenty of light areas. - I don't think I have examined B&W landscapes particularly well here, though I included several (all given a similar high key, high contrast treatment). It's not a type of photography I do much of and I doubt that I am particularly good at processing them for printing on western paper, let alone these Japanese papers. So will I buy some more? Probably! I want to make some photobooks, so the Inbe Thin papers are attractive. The Bizan (handmade) papers are stunning, and expensive. They would make great presents, for holding. Or mounted held away from a plain background, to show the deckle edges - but these aren't for everyday use. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited November 16, 2020 by LocalHero1953 4 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314672-washi-japanese-papers-for-inkjet-printing-experience/?do=findComment&comment=4081142'>More sharing options...
Guest Nowhereman Posted November 16, 2020 Share #16 Posted November 16, 2020 Paul - Thanks for posting your results. Interesting. I'm still dreaming about making a huge book, like the one in the Okahara video that I linked in post #5 above, but haven't found a concept/theme for this yet: I would have to get creative and shoot some new images but, now, with covid... You mention trying a book with this: what size and what type of binding are you thinking about? ________________________Frog Leaping photobook Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share #17 Posted November 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, Nowhereman said: Paul - Thanks for posting your results. Interesting. I'm still dreaming about making a huge book, like the one in the Okahara video that I linked in post #5 above, but haven't found a concept/theme for this yet: I would have to get creative and shoot some new images but, now, with covid... You mention trying a book with this: what size and what type of binding are you thinking about? ________________________Frog Leaping photobook Hi Mitch - I have no idea about books yet. I have signed up to an online bookmaking workshop in a couple of weeks time, and my ideas should crystallise after that. I would expect my first one to be small and simple! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Watts Posted November 21, 2021 Share #18 Posted November 21, 2021 On 11/16/2020 at 10:02 AM, LocalHero1953 said: I have just finished test prints on my second sample pack from Awagami. Building on what I learned from the first pack, I: - Printed photographs of people, landscape and nature, avoiding buildings and manmade objects. - Looked at how well borderless printing works. - Looked at how well the thin papers stood up to dense coloured images (lots of ink), as well as sparse images with lots of light background. - Printed on both sides of the Inbe Thin paper; although not marked on the pack as suitable for double sided, I'd seen remarks online that the Inbe paper was designed for double sided. Further conclusions: - Borderless printing presented no problems (I didn't expect any, but worth checking). - The Murakumo Kozo Select thin papers held ink well (dark blue image of man in the centre, and B&W girl singing top right corner) showed the image on the reverse, but with little obvious lateral seepage. The Kozo Thin papers showed even less (landscape with two rocky islands, centre left, two dancing couples, top centre). - The Inbe Thin White, which I printed double sided with dense coloured images (girl in the red jacket, centre right) showed no obvious sign of the images on the respective reverses. Common sense says this needs further examination, but if it remains the case, then this looks like a good paper for photobooks. - The double layered papers remain challenging, both to peel and mount. My experience from the first batch was repeated: the Mitsumata White Double Layered (landscape of Helvellyn, bottom left) was fairly easy to separate with care. The Kozo Double Layered is tricky and easy to tear as you start to peel, and remains curled (lovers in dark red, bottom right). I understand these papers are designed to be made into Japanese hanging scrolls. - I tried two different image types with the Unryu paper (the one with the waferboard-like surface texture). A borderless print of a wildflower garden (top right): the paper pattern was lost entirely; I can see no benefit to this paper for such an all-over image. The clunky vignette of pink plants (lower left): the paper adds something here because the texture is visible in the un-inked or light colour parts. This is not really the sort of photography I do, but I can see a benefit to the paper here. - Generalising from the foregoing conclusion, all these papers show themselves at their best where the texture of the paper can be seen. I would be inclined to print dense colour images with a large border, or use these papers for images where there are plenty of light areas. - I don't think I have examined B&W landscapes particularly well here, though I included several (all given a similar high key, high contrast treatment). It's not a type of photography I do much of and I doubt that I am particularly good at processing them for printing on western paper, let alone these Japanese papers. So will I buy some more? Probably! I want to make some photobooks, so the Inbe Thin papers are attractive. The Bizan (handmade) papers are stunning, and expensive. They would make great presents, for holding. Or mounted held away from a plain background, to show the deckle edges - but these aren't for everyday use. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Paul, what printer did you use and what paper profiles too? Many thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 21, 2021 Author Share #19 Posted November 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Barrie Watts said: Paul, what printer did you use and what paper profiles too? Many thanks. I use an Epson P800. I took the paper profiles from the Awagami website. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted November 22, 2021 Share #20 Posted November 22, 2021 On 11/16/2020 at 7:02 PM, LocalHero1953 said: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! nice pics, any film scans printed in this batch or all digital images? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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