S3 vs M10-R

[sincurves]

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I tested the M10-R a while back and found the files to be outstanding. What would I gain from going with a S3 instead purely from an IQ point of view? I understand the sensors are based on the same design - is it only the size of the sensor that differs? 
I’m aware of all the differences in body, lenses etc l, but I’m curious as to what differences in IQ would be due to the sensors.

Appreciate any views on this.

[helged]

1 hour ago, sincurves said:

I tested the M10-R a while back and found the files to be outstanding. What would I gain from going with a S3 instead purely from an IQ point of view? I understand the sensors are based on the same design - is it only the size of the sensor that differs? 
I’m aware of all the differences in body, lenses etc l, but I’m curious as to what differences in IQ would be due to the sensors.

Appreciate any views on this.

The S3-files are lovely , at least as long as you don't lift shadows at high ISOs (resulting in banding/artefacts). The M10-R and S3 sensors are, as you say, based on the same sensor-technology. There are (likely) differences to the filters/cover-glass on top of the sensor, possibly to the in-body signal processing as well. Leica frequently mention the colour-science that went into the development of the S3. I would guess similar technology/processing is used in the M10-R. In addition, all modern M-sensors have micro-lenses (http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html) in order to reduce edge/corner effects due to the back-compatibility with older (and particularly wider) M-lenses. As far as I know, this is not part of the S-sensors. I have yet too see a direct comparison between M10-R and S3 files, but I expect the files to more similar than dissimilar. Personally I prefer the S-lenses to other lenses; they mix sharpness and resolution with a little Mandler-magic... For utmost perfection, the SL-primes are on the top, but I still favour the S-lenses. I would think that S3-bodies with 1-2 lenses are available for some days testing; it should give you a first understanding of the files/system. 

 

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[Stuart Richardson]

I have not had the M10-R, so I cannot compare 1 to 1, but in general you will basically have less apparent noise for the same ISO settings, since you have roughly the same sensor performance with a larger sensor to make the image. You will also have better tonality for the same reason...with all else being equal, which is basically is here, more individually discriminated pixels means more information, which means more nuanced tonality. Furthermore, most S lenses are sharper than most M lenses, so you tend to also gain from the S lenses being sharper and better corrected as a whole than the M lenses as a whole. Given the larger sensor and longer lenses for the same angle of view, your lenses and pictures will tend to have shallower depth of field, unless you tend to shoot the M lenses wide open as a matter of course.

As for differences, there are likely differences in sensor tuning and color response. I suspect they will not be identical. Frankly, I also suspect that support for the M10R by Adobe and Capture One will be better because it has a much larger market than the S3. I cannot speak to the difference between the M10R color tuning and S3 color tuning, but I anticipate they will be a bit different.

I know you say that image quality alone is the main interest, but it is hard to separate the bodies from the image quality...the M10R, gives you a very high resolution compact body in a small package. The S3 and any lens for it is substantially bigger and not really the kind of camera that one grabs to just bring along so they tend to be optimized for different kinds of photos. The S3 lends itself better to very purposeful image making...studio work, professional work, copy work, landscape work, architecture etc. The M10R is a more natural choice for street work, candids, events, travel and everyday picturemaking. It can do most of the pro work as well, but it is not the most natural choice for studio work, for example.

[ynp]

I have both. If you are not interested in a MF DSLR experience, than I don’t see a lot of reasons to get the S3. 

My reasons to buy the S3 were the lenses, I want to use my S lenses in the future and the S is the only modern system designed to use my Contax 645 lenses. I am addicted to my Contax Planar 80mm. 
 

 

[sincurves]

Thanks for the insights  I use a S006 and Hasselblad for studio - both different and wonderful. It’s the thought of having near MF IQ in a M body that’s appealing. Unfortunately no S3 demo available here. 

[John Smith]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Furthermore, most S lenses are sharper than most M lenses, so you tend to also gain from the S lenses being sharper and better corrected as a whole than the M lenses as a whole.

I think this might be true, except for the latest M lenses—the 50mm APO, 75mm Noctilux, 90mm Summilux. The 0.95 Noctilux might fall into that group, too.

[Stuart Richardson]

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2 hours ago, sincurves said:

Thanks for the insights  I use a S006 and Hasselblad for studio - both different and wonderful. It’s the thought of having near MF IQ in a M body that’s appealing. Unfortunately no S3 demo available here. 

I would wait until you can demo it. It is different enough from the S006 to merit a comparison in your workflow. If you are interested in high IQ in a small body, the SL2 is the highest resolution Leica. It is substantially sharper than the S3 when using the pixel shift mode. Even at 47mp, it is often sharper than the S3 in given images because of the sharper lenses and broader DOF. I think the color is a closer match to the S006 than the S3 is.

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Stuart Richardson

[LeicaR10]

Sincurves,   I use both the S3 and M10-R for my work.  Helged in his post #2, gives a very good summary and I agree with him.  I found the color between the two cameras is nearly the same and need very little post processing.  What my clients like best about the S3 and S lenses is the cinematic rendering and level of detail.  Of course I make very large prints (Minimum 4 ft X 6 ft and larger) and the S3 and S lenses simply deliver.  The M10-R does most excellent as well but not at the same resolution for the really large print sizes.  For my business, most of my landscape photographs are taken in remote areas.  Depending on the difficulty of terrain and hiking challenges into an area, sometimes drives the camera system I take for the job.  If you need very large and detailed prints, the S3 might be an answer for you.  If you print smaller, the M10-R delivers.  I hope this helps.  r/ Mark 

Edited October 30, 2020 by LeicaR10

[sincurves]

Thanks, Mark. It does indeed help. A combo of M10-R and S3 sounds attractive (ignoring the cost) and would give consistent colors from the two. 

[John McMaster]

20 hours ago, John Smith said:

I think this might be true, except for the latest M lenses—the 50mm APO, 75mm Noctilux, 90mm Summilux. The 0.95 Noctilux might fall into that group, too.

I know the two 50mm lenses; the APO is similar (no better) to the S70 but the larger sensor helps (this was M(240) vs S2-P), the Noctilux would only be comparable to the S100 which I have not used.

john

[John Smith]

4 hours ago, John McMaster said:

I know the two 50mm lenses; the APO is similar (no better) to the S70 but the larger sensor helps (this was M(240) vs S2-P), the Noctilux would only be comparable to the S100 which I have not used.

john

I used both lenses side by side. I’d say the larger sensor helps with photographs of the same size, but the APO is sharper pixel for pixel. But my point to Stuart’s post is that the newer M lenses are right up there in terms of sharpness and IQ. The 75mm Noctilux on the SL2 is fantastic and with lens speed and IBIS.

[John Smith]

2 minutes ago, John Smith said:

I used both lenses side by side. I’d say the larger sensor helps with photographs of the same size, but the APO is sharper at the pixel level. But my point to Stuart’s post was that the newer M lenses are right up there in terms of sharpness and IQ. The 75mm Noctilux on the SL2 is fantastic with lens speed and IBIS. It is sharp, sharp at 1.25 and crushes it stopped down.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by John Smith