24meg verses 40meg aesthetic

[Steven]

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I have a confession to make: 

After 1 month with my new M10R, I love it. The few times that a higher MP count actually produces a different aesthetics, I prefer the M10R look. The biggest improvement for me, and the only reason why I would not go back to the P is the 100 Base ISO. Thanks to that, I don't need to go out with and ND anymore. When I use to shoot at 1/4000, im now only at 1/2000. The extra MP comes in handy now to crop and reframe, especially on a camera like an M where the luxury of composition is not always an option. 

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT

I have to confess that I cannot get my shots right! There are all blurry. I don't consider myself a great RF shooter, but with my M10P I use to nail 90% of my shots. With the R, over 50% of my shots are blurry. The only moment when my shots aren't blurry is when my shutter speed is at above 1/500th or faster on a bright day. 

What's going on ? Does the increase in resolution hard to master as others have feared? I didn't believe this, but right now im almost not using it, unless its with a wide lens (28 or lower) in daylight.... 

Anyone experiencing the same? 

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

I have a confession to make: 

After 1 month with my new M10R, I love it. The few times that a higher MP count actually produces a different aesthetics, I prefer the M10R look. The biggest improvement for me, and the only reason why I would not go back to the P is the 100 Base ISO. Thanks to that, I don't need to go out with and ND anymore. When I use to shoot at 1/4000, im now only at 1/2000. The extra MP comes in handy now to crop and reframe, especially on a camera like an M where the luxury of composition is not always an option. 

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT

I have to confess that I cannot get my shots right! There are all blurry. I don't consider myself a great RF shooter, but with my M10P I use to nail 90% of my shots. With the R, over 50% of my shots are blurry. The only moment when my shots aren't blurry is when my shutter speed is at above 1/500th or faster on a bright day. 

What's going on ? Does the increase in resolution hard to master as others have feared? I didn't believe this, but right now im almost not using it, unless its with a wide lens (28 or lower) in daylight.... 

Anyone experiencing the same? 

Take a picture of yourself using the camera in a mirror and post it.

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[Jeff S]

How are you viewing your pics to determine ‘sharpness’?  On-screen magnification? Print size?  Same presentation with both cameras?

Jeff

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

I have a confession to make: 

After 1 month with my new M10R, I love it. The few times that a higher MP count actually produces a different aesthetics, I prefer the M10R look. The biggest improvement for me, and the only reason why I would not go back to the P is the 100 Base ISO. Thanks to that, I don't need to go out with and ND anymore. When I use to shoot at 1/4000, im now only at 1/2000. The extra MP comes in handy now to crop and reframe, especially on a camera like an M where the luxury of composition is not always an option. 

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT

I have to confess that I cannot get my shots right! There are all blurry. I don't consider myself a great RF shooter, but with my M10P I use to nail 90% of my shots. With the R, over 50% of my shots are blurry. The only moment when my shots aren't blurry is when my shutter speed is at above 1/500th or faster on a bright day. 

What's going on ? Does the increase in resolution hard to master as others have feared? I didn't believe this, but right now im almost not using it, unless its with a wide lens (28 or lower) in daylight.... 

Anyone experiencing the same? 

It is an oft-mentioned (but also  often discussed) effect of a high-resolution camera. They tend to increase motion blur. The argument is that larger pixels will "hide" motion blur as long as the blur is less than the pixel diameter. FWIIW.
You will need to refine your hand-holding technique.

[Jeff S]

11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It is an oft-mentioned (but also  often discussed) effect of a high-resolution camera. They tend to increase motion blur. The argument is that larger pixels will "hide" motion blur as long as the blur is less than the pixel diameter. FWIIW.
You will need to refine your hand-holding technique.

01af gave an entirely different response to my question to Jono in his M10-R post.

Jeff

[jaapv]

14 minutes ago, jaapv said:

(but also  often discussed)

I know - but I tend to believe the theory. 01af addresses pixel count here, not pixel size. Imagine a 2-pixel sensor photographing a black dot on a white sheet.. The result would be an image, one half grey, one half white . You would have to move the camera 18 mm on the sensor to get the grey half to switch to the other side.

[budjames]

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11 hours ago, Steven said:

I have a confession to make: 

After 1 month with my new M10R, I love it. The few times that a higher MP count actually produces a different aesthetics, I prefer the M10R look. The biggest improvement for me, and the only reason why I would not go back to the P is the 100 Base ISO. Thanks to that, I don't need to go out with and ND anymore. When I use to shoot at 1/4000, im now only at 1/2000. The extra MP comes in handy now to crop and reframe, especially on a camera like an M where the luxury of composition is not always an option. 

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT

I have to confess that I cannot get my shots right! There are all blurry. I don't consider myself a great RF shooter, but with my M10P I use to nail 90% of my shots. With the R, over 50% of my shots are blurry. The only moment when my shots aren't blurry is when my shutter speed is at above 1/500th or faster on a bright day. 

What's going on ? Does the increase in resolution hard to master as others have feared? I didn't believe this, but right now im almost not using it, unless its with a wide lens (28 or lower) in daylight.... 

Anyone experiencing the same? 

If the blurry photos occurs with different lenses, you may have received a copy with the rangefinder our of calibration. It happens. 

Try mounting the camera on a tripod, focus manually using the rangefinder and then take a shot. Then, without moving the camera, turn on live view and check the focus. if you need to focus to get a sharp print using live view, your rangefinder needs to be calibrated.

When I purchased my first Leica, the M10, in November 2017, I purchased a Summicron 35, 75 and Summilux 50. I could not nail focus on the 35 or 50. I took my kit to the Leica service center in NJ in early December. They check out the camera and lenses. The 35 and 50 were way out of calibration. I had to leave them the lenses to get recalibrated. I didn't get the lenses back until late January. They worked fine since then. The rangefinder system was properly calibrated. It was a bummer to spend about $15k on my first Leica M only to have the initial problems I experienced.

I own the M10-R. I have not experienced any focus issues that you reported. I still miss focus occasionally, but the no different than with my M10.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[Guest Nowhereman]

41 minutes ago, budjames said:

...I own the M10-R. I have not experienced any focus issues that you reported. I still miss focus occasionally, but the no different than with my M10...

But Steven reported motion blur, from camera shake, not a focus issue: he stated that only his shots with a shutter speed of 1/500 and above weren't blurry.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

[Steven]

12 hours ago, jdlaing said:

Take a picture of yourself using the camera in a mirror and post it.

All my M10R elevator selfies are blurry, as a matter of fact. On the M10P, they were all Likedin PP material ! 

 

11 hours ago, Jeff S said:

How are you viewing your pics to determine ‘sharpness’?  On-screen magnification? Print size?  Same presentation with both cameras?

Jeff

Very wise question, as always. Slight magnification, in proportion to the MP count. So If I zoom in 50% on the M10P, ill zoom in about 25% on the M10R, to see the same portion of the image on the screen. The blurriness is most of the time also noticeable when not zooming in. Just watching on screen. 

 

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

You will need to refine your hand-holding technique.

I really didn't think it was going to be the case. Im very surprised that it is turning out to be true. And I don't know if I am willing to add one more sacrifice to us the M line. Also, going back to the P is not an option. All future Ms should have more than 24MP now, and I don't want to invest myself (emotionally) into a system that doesn't have a long term future for me. Unless they add IBIS on the M11? They won't, I know. But for the record, when I tried my M lenses on the 47MP sensor of the SL2, no issues raised. Sharp as a razor. IBIS. 

 

3 hours ago, budjames said:

you may have received a copy with the rangefinder our of calibration

Unfortunately I tried this and this is not the case. Also, when im outdoor at 1/500 or faster, my images are tack sharp (and more beautiful than on my M10P)

 

2 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

from camera shake, not a focus issue

Correct. 

[Kwesi]

Hi Steven,

The M10 R images should be sharp at 1/500. I would suggest trying another body at the Leica store to compare with yours. A quick shot outside the store with both cameras should be enough to determine if its just your camera.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Kwesi

[LBJ2]

22 hours ago, Steven said:

I have a confession to make: 

After 1 month with my new M10R, I love it. The few times that a higher MP count actually produces a different aesthetics, I prefer the M10R look. The biggest improvement for me, and the only reason why I would not go back to the P is the 100 Base ISO. Thanks to that, I don't need to go out with and ND anymore. When I use to shoot at 1/4000, im now only at 1/2000. The extra MP comes in handy now to crop and reframe, especially on a camera like an M where the luxury of composition is not always an option. 

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT

I have to confess that I cannot get my shots right! There are all blurry. I don't consider myself a great RF shooter, but with my M10P I use to nail 90% of my shots. With the R, over 50% of my shots are blurry. The only moment when my shots aren't blurry is when my shutter speed is at above 1/500th or faster on a bright day. 

What's going on ? Does the increase in resolution hard to master as others have feared? I didn't believe this, but right now im almost not using it, unless its with a wide lens (28 or lower) in daylight.... 

Anyone experiencing the same? 

I am very surprised to hear this. I’ve shot 36, 42, and 61 MP FF Sony cameras mostly without IBIS and never found to have issues getting sharp photos even with long lenses. In fact I rarely use IBIS on my Sony cameras unless for a very specific super telephoto lens and scenario. 

From what you describe and from your additional answers to thread questions, I suspect something else is wrong as others have mentioned. I know you put a lot of effort into the M10-R purchase, but also since this is a new purchase, I am sure your shop will work with you to resolve one way or the other. Very curious to learn the conclusion as I am sure this situation is very disappointing for you. 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by LBJ2

[jplomley]

On 11/28/2020 at 5:55 PM, Steven said:

I have a confession to make: 

After 1 month with my new M10R, I love it. The few times that a higher MP count actually produces a different aesthetics, I prefer the M10R look. The biggest improvement for me, and the only reason why I would not go back to the P is the 100 Base ISO. Thanks to that, I don't need to go out with and ND anymore. When I use to shoot at 1/4000, im now only at 1/2000. The extra MP comes in handy now to crop and reframe, especially on a camera like an M where the luxury of composition is not always an option. 

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT

I have to confess that I cannot get my shots right! There are all blurry. I don't consider myself a great RF shooter, but with my M10P I use to nail 90% of my shots. With the R, over 50% of my shots are blurry. The only moment when my shots aren't blurry is when my shutter speed is at above 1/500th or faster on a bright day. 

What's going on ? Does the increase in resolution hard to master as others have feared? I didn't believe this, but right now im almost not using it, unless its with a wide lens (28 or lower) in daylight.... 

Anyone experiencing the same? 

Very odd Steven. I also worried about this, but confirmed I am able to hand hold down to 1/30th with my 50 LuxAsph and achieve very detailed images. I do use the Leica handgrip and am a left eyes shooter, so the back on the camera is always pressed into my nose. Perhaps these two factors make a difference?

[jdlaing]

10 hours ago, Steven said:

All my M10R elevator selfies are blurry, as a matter of fact. On the M10P, they were all Likedin PP material ! 

 

 

That’s not why I asked you to post the pic.

Take a selfie in a mirror with the camera and post it here.

[bilbrown]

So I took a photo just because I have a project and seem to take a lot of the same types of shots and even the same location over and over again. The original photo was done with my M10, which I recently replaced with the M10-R. The difference in a low light photo like I will attach when i am at my computer is pretty intense. The lenses were both 50, the one on the m10 was the 50 APO, the 50 0n my M10-R is the 50 Lux. You can see the difference, I don’t feel either are too technical... I will mention I avoided the SL2/Q2 because they seemed too ‘technical’... for some reason the S3 based M10-R has a truly ORGANIC feel to me. Maybe that is because I tend to scan film at very high resolutions, up to 80MP or more. 40 seems, doable.q 24 is fine. I don’t mind either. I still have my SL1, LUMIX S1, and SIGMA FP all at 24mp. Different rendering, but totally fine.

[LBJ2]

19 hours ago, bilbrown said:

So I took a photo just because I have a project and seem to take a lot of the same types of shots and even the same location over and over again. The original photo was done with my M10, which I recently replaced with the M10-R. The difference in a low light photo like I will attach when i am at my computer is pretty intense. The lenses were both 50, the one on the m10 was the 50 APO, the 50 0n my M10-R is the 50 Lux. You can see the difference, I don’t feel either are too technical... I will mention I avoided the SL2/Q2 because they seemed too ‘technical’... for some reason the S3 based M10-R has a truly ORGANIC feel to me. Maybe that is because I tend to scan film at very high resolutions, up to 80MP or more. 40 seems, doable.q 24 is fine. I don’t mind either. I still have my SL1, LUMIX S1, and SIGMA FP all at 24mp. Different rendering, but totally fine.

Ok ready when you are! Sounds interesting and great that you can post comparison images. 

[Mr.Prime]

Wow, fantastic thread, my thanks and appreciation to the key contributors.

One interesting thing that I noticed about my own feelings was that I was subconsciously hoping that the 24MP aesthetic was real, that the M10 was better than the R and thus represents the pinnacle, that the search was over.

 

 

[bilbrown]

Okay, this is taking a moment because I need to reduce the resolution of both the M10 and M10R image to post here.

 

I am pretty certain I shot both of these shots with my the APO 50 at f2, both at A and ISO open to interpretation by the camera so that I could just se what it would choose.

 

The M10 shot was done in June, and the M10R shot was done in September. I didn't really reference the original shot except from memory.

 

I am including the M10 shot JPG (as I always shoot JPG+DNG) and the M10R original JPG and a separate crop to show the framing as it was in my original M10 shot. I have just cropped, I have not done anything other to these shots at all.

 

I won't tell you what I see, and will let you be the judge between the 24MP 2017 sensor and the 40MP 2020 sensor.

 

 

 

 

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[bilbrown]

The above was 

 

1st image M10

2nd image M10R crop

this is the original M10R file

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[Steven]

Having owned both the M10P and the M10R, I guessed which photo was taken by which camera in half a second before I read it in your next posts. Several thing gave it away. The main way being the color tint of the photo. 

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[bilbrown]

21 hours ago, Steven said:

Having owned both the M10P and the M10R, I guessed which photo was taken by which camera in half a second before I read it in your next posts. Several thing gave it away. The main way being the color tint of the photo. 

Yep. That's the dead give away.