First-time owner: M Typ 240 or M10?

[Jinesh]

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Looking to get my first Leica body and I am debating between a Typ 240 and the new M10.

I would be purchasing pre-owned and from some scouring I can see I can pick up a 240 for approximately $3000 USD at best (maybe $4000 CAD) and an M10 for about $6200 USD at best (approx $8000 CAD).

Everything in me says for a first-time shooter twice the price for the body is just not worth it, and I should invest that $4000 in accessories and lenses. I must admit I am leaning toward using Voigtlander glass vs. Leica glass as I have seen incredible results from their 50 f/1.5 aspherical and their 35 f/1.2 which are the two focal lengths I use. Both can be had fairly cheap. If I'm honestly considering stretching my budget to $8000 CAD I could invest in something originally Leica as well.

Just curious what everything thinks for a first-time shooter, if I should invest in the new model so I'm good for years, or should I stick to the 240 for now and figure things out later on?

I have been progressively pairing down and simplifying my photography as the years have gone by. Went from Nikon with a crap ton of gear to realizing I only like 35 and 50 on full-frame and now I've sold my full-frame setup and switched to, believe it or not, a Fuji X100.

My slow, deliberate style of shooting and mostly shooting in manual on the X100 has taught me that maybe Leica is the next foray.

I lean toward the Typ 240 because:

• Cost

• Video capability (if I ever want it)

• Compatibility with the Olympus EVF; I find EVFs very helpful on occasion

I lean toward the M10 because:

• Significantly thinner

• Better performance

• Future-proofing

• Wifi. I love being out and about and being able to transfer a photo to my phone and instantly edit and share. My X100 has this and I love it.

Any thoughts??

[Good To Be Retired]

In the interest of full disclosure, I kept my M240 as the upgrade to an M10 didn't offer sufficient improvement in the areas I would prefer for it to make economic sense.  Were I a first time buyer with no Leica at all and interested in used bodies, I would likely select the M10 for the improved viewfinder.  The lack of video is, for me, a plus.  If you want to do video at all I would suggest there are better ways to do so.

However, if I were interested in buying new, or if I could find one, I would gravitate towards a M10R.  

In fact, were I in the market for another Leica at all, I probably would skip the M10 altogether were it not for the M10R.  I may have just enough time left to see an M11

As is, and with a new Hasselblad sitting on the desk, I suspect the wife isn't going to sit still for another camera of any sort for a while

Edited October 21, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

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[AimClickCapture]

3 hours ago, Jinesh said:

Looking to get my first Leica body and I am debating between a Typ 240 and the new M10.

I would be purchasing pre-owned and from some scouring I can see I can pick up a 240 for approximately $3000 USD at best (maybe $4000 CAD) and an M10 for about $6200 USD at best (approx $8000 CAD).

Everything in me says for a first-time shooter twice the price for the body is just not worth it, and I should invest that $4000 in accessories and lenses. I must admit I am leaning toward using Voigtlander glass vs. Leica glass as I have seen incredible results from their 50 f/1.5 aspherical and their 35 f/1.2 which are the two focal lengths I use. Both can be had fairly cheap. If I'm honestly considering stretching my budget to $8000 CAD I could invest in something originally Leica as well.

Just curious what everything thinks for a first-time shooter, if I should invest in the new model so I'm good for years, or should I stick to the 240 for now and figure things out later on?

I have been progressively pairing down and simplifying my photography as the years have gone by. Went from Nikon with a crap ton of gear to realizing I only like 35 and 50 on full-frame and now I've sold my full-frame setup and switched to, believe it or not, a Fuji X100.

My slow, deliberate style of shooting and mostly shooting in manual on the X100 has taught me that maybe Leica is the next foray.

I lean toward the Typ 240 because:

• Cost

• Video capability (if I ever want it)

• Compatibility with the Olympus EVF; I find EVFs very helpful on occasion

I lean toward the M10 because:

• Significantly thinner

• Better performance

• Future-proofing

• Wifi. I love being out and about and being able to transfer a photo to my phone and instantly edit and share. My X100 has this and I love it.

Any thoughts??

This is my first time posting/replying in this forum so I apologize if this reply is too lengthy or goes against the rules (moderators - please correct me for future posts).  However, I was just in a similar (but slightly different) situation as you Jinesh and felt I needed to weigh in...

I began with Canon digital point and shoots in early 2000s, “graduated“ to a Canon 60D DSLR in 2011 as a college graduation present to myself, and then got my first Fujifilm camera (X100T) at the end of 2014.  The X100T changed my whole love for and approach to photography, becoming more slow and deliberate like you mentioned It did for you.  It remains one of the most important pieces of gear I ever purchased as it changed so much for me.  Over the next few years, I sold off all of my Canon gear and fully switched over to Fujifilm, acquiring 5 more Fujifilm cameras (X-T20, X-T2, X-H1, X-Pro3, and X100V) from 2015-2020.  I still use and love Fujifilm and the latest X100V is my favorite digital camera I’ve ever owned.

I also began shooting film a few years back and always held the Leica M3 as my DREAM camera that I would love to some day own.  As luck would have it, around my 30th birthday, I was able to acquire a mint-condition SS 1959 M3 from the original owner (an older gentleman who owned a local camera shop near me) for an incredible price ($800).  My love for Leica and film photography grew astronomically from this point forward using the M3.  I’m firmly in the camp of people who feel Leica nailed it on their first attempt at the M with the M3 and it remains THE greatest M ever released that all others that have come since attempt to live up to.

Last year, I was looking for another M that had a built-in light meter and was fortunate enough to acquire a mint-condition black 2002 Leica M6 TTL for a great price again ($1400) from its original owner (a close colleague).  The combination of the M3 & M6 made me want to have that same analog M-experience but in the digital world.  However, digital M’s always seemed foolish and cost-prohibitive to me.  Instead, I tried adapting my M-mount glass onto my Fujifilm X-Pro 3.  Although it worked and was able to produce some great images, it did not provide that digital M experience I was desiring.

For the past 10+ months or so, I began actively looking at trying to acquire a digital M at a reasonable price that I could justify and afford and doing as much research as I could on what camera made the most sense (M 240? M10? M8 or M9?).  I love the design, features, and feel of the M10 (and its variants) for all of the reasons you mentioned and was hoping to pick one up if the right price came along.  I finally found a used black M10 at my local camera shop a few months back for $5500, which seemed pretty reasonable for the condition and age of the camera.  This was still outside of my price range but I felt I could figure out a way to afford it and justify the purchase as it would be my future-proofed digital M that I would own for the next 6-10 years (or until it stopped working and was no longer able to be serviced).

I came as close to owning it as having it rung up at the register but ultimately didn’t swipe the credit card as logical thinking (thankfully) popped into my head and I just couldn’t justify the price and walked away.  Also, the M10-R had just been released and I figured the prices of the M10 will continue to come down over the next year or so as more M10 owners trade up to the M10-R or other variants.

I was back in my local camera shop last week picking up some other gear for a wedding I helped shoot over the weekend.  As I always do when in there, I took a look at what used Leica gear they had in stock.  I noticed they had a used “Demo” silver Leica M 240 for $3300.  Turned out that this was actually a “Brand New” M 240 that had never even been opened or used but since this model has since been discontinued by Leica for a couple of years now, the camera store could no longer sell it as new and had to list it as “Used - Demo” at a significantly marked down price.  

I was never too excited about the M240 based on what I read and heard about the bulkiness of it compared to the film Ms/M10; it’s relatively poor high-ISO performance beyond 3200; and also the fact that it was an 8 year old camera.  However, after holding it in my hands, I can say that the 4mm size difference, although noticeable, is NOT as significant as I had been led to believe before holding it in my hands.  I also realized that whenever I shoot film or even my Fujifilm digital cameras, I rarely shoot above ISO 1600 and instead adjust my aperture or shutter speed to compensate if I need to let in more light.  I have also read a lot of reviews and forums of other people saying that the difference in capability between the M240 and the M10 (for many) is not significant enough to justify the $2000-3000 price difference.  I figured it couldn’t hurt to test the camera out for myself and was able to rent the camera last weekend.

Although I previously was very hesitant to even consider an 8-year old camera, after getting a chance to shoot it for several days, I came away realizing that the price and performance were perfect for my needs and would fill my digital M desires.  I’ve been thrilled with several of the images I was able to produce with the camera. When I went to return the camera rental on Monday, I instead negotiated the price down a bit from $3300 and traded in one fo my Fujifilm cameras (X-H1) for credit towards it and walked back out of there with a brand new M 240 for $2500!  

 

I will say a few things I did notice with the camera that were annoyances but not deal breakers (For me):

- The menus are a little clunky and not the simplest to navigate to the features used most (compared to the streamlined, simple design of the M10 menus)

- The layout of the buttons and menus and how you navigate them to change certain settings is different than any of my previous digital camera so it’s taking a little getting used to.  Annoying but something that will become second nature the more time I spend shooting and playing around with the camera.

- It is true that you will experience high noise and banding in poorly lit situations where you have to use ISO 3200-6400.  I experienced this using the camera last weekend in a poorly lit wedding reception hall.  However, like previously stated, I rarely find myself in conditions like this where I shoot above ISO 1600 and the images shot between ISO 200 - 1600 came out just fine with minimal noise and no signs of banding.  Your mileage may vary depending on what you typically shoot

- The 1GB buffer is a little small (especially coming from newer, faster digital cameras) and fills up fast if you do shoot in continuous mode.  I rarely shoot in this style and would likely use one of my other digital Fujifilm cameras for situations like this so not a big deal for me but worth mentioning.

 

My recommendation for you would be to try and rent or borrow a copy of an M 240 and an M10, spending a couple of days shooting both to get a true idea of what each camera feels like and is capable of.  Check out the RAW files and JPEGS and try out a couple different lenses (if you can) on both cameras, seeing how those lenses render on each.  

If you find (like I did) that the M 240 is able to achieve 90+% of what the M10 can and meet your needs for a digital M, I’d suggest trying to pick up an M 240 in good/great condition and price and put that extra money in your budget towards investing in a some decent glass, especially if you do not already own any M-mount lenses.  I have a mix of Leica (40mm Summicron-C, 90mm Elmarit), Zeiss (28 Biogon f2.8, 50 Planar f2), and Voigtlander (35mm f1.4 Nocton Classic II) glass and each lens is great in its own right.  Sure, the case can be made for the superiority of Leica glass above all others, but IMHO, the difference is negligible to most people, especially when you look at the price difference.  My budget does not justify the 10-fold price difference of the 35mm Summilux vs the 35mm 1.4 Nocton Classic II nor do I think I would produce an image that is 10x better as a result of using the former over the latter.  This is not to say they are identical or that the summilux is not a great lens; it absolutely IS a fantastic lens but I feel you could put the same budget you’d spend on a used copy of one ($3000-4000) towards building a complete kit with some great glass from Zeiss, Voigtlander, or even older Leica lenses.

I do hope to one day purchase the M10 (or M10-P, M10-D, or M10-R) but the current prices, even used, remain too high for my needs and use case to justify spending that money.  Hopefully in 2-4 years, I’ll be in a position where I come across a great condition copy of a used M10-variant for a price I can’t turn down and be able to add it to my bag!

I know this was extremely lengthy but hopefully it will be helpful for you (and others that may see this later on) and gave you some perspective on my camera journey and what ultimately made me choose the M 240 over the M 10 (for now, in 2020).  Please keep us updated on what you ultimately end up deciding to do!  Best of luck on your Leica search!

 

P.S. Benj Haisch is a Leica Wedding Photographer based in the northwest who has some great videos on YouTube regarding the practicality of using the M 240 in 2020 that you might want to check out.  He also recently upgraded to a pair of M 10s and had recently listed his M 240s up for sale for a pretty reasonable price on Twitter.  Might be worth checking out if you decide to go the M 240 route.

 

 

 

 

[easy_action]

6 hours ago, AimClickCapture said:

the M 240 is able to achieve 90+% of what the M10 can

I would second this.  Unless you are desperate for the M10 viewfinder (I didn't notice much difference) and/or regularly shoot at ISO 3200 or above, I would save your money and put it towards something else.  Used M10's will get cheaper in time and you can pick one up later if you want to upgrade.

One practical advantage of the M240 is the battery, which is good for nearly double the number of exposures in my experience.

[Ernstk]

Even better, go for the M-P 240. Bigger buffer for faster continual shooting, sapphire glass rear screen, and in my opinion, much better looks, especially in black paint.

Ernst

[AimClickCapture]

23 minutes ago, easy_action said:

I would second this.  Unless you are desperate for the M10 viewfinder (I didn't notice much difference) and/or regularly shoot at ISO 3200 or above, I would save your money and put it towards something else.  Used M10's will get cheaper in time and you can pick one up later if you want to upgrade.

One practical advantage of the M240 is the battery, which is good for nearly double the number of exposures in my experience.

Yes, forgot to mention about the battery and viewfinder but completely agree!
 

I’ve looked through both viewfinders and yes, the M10’s is larger than the M240’s and provides a little better eye relief, however, the 30% size difference while noticeable, is not as significant (to me) to justify the price upgrade as the M 240 viewfinder is a similar size to my M6 which I’m plenty used to.  
 

Also, I charged the battery last Friday, shot around 100 photos in RAW + JPEG at the wedding and probably another 100 or so since of my family and the battery has only dropped down to around 90% so the battery life is pretty awesome and nearly double the size as the M10. This is an important thing to consider if you plan to shoot all day and need extra batteries as they are NOT cheap. 

[AimClickCapture]

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23 minutes ago, Ernstk said:

Even better, go for the M-P 240. Bigger buffer for faster continual shooting, sapphire glass rear screen, and in my opinion, much better looks, especially in black paint.

Ernst

I agree with this, too. If my local camera shop had an MP 240, I probably would have gone for that instead as the larger buffer would be nice and I do miss the frame-line preview selector on the standard M 240. However, since I was investing in an 8 year old camera system and the copy available for me to purchase was brand new, I chose to go that route rather than wait to find a 6-8 year old used copy that may or may not have needed servicing at Leica after purchase. 
 

If buying a film M, I think you have less to worry about in grabbing a steal of a deal on a used copy. Sure, it may need a CLA at some point but with few/no electronic components involved, you’re less likely to get stuck with a dud and have a hefty repair bill. 
 

If buying a used digital M (or any used digital camera), I think it’s in your best interest to really know the history of the camera’s ownership and physically test it out before buying so you don’t end up spending a few thousand dollars on a camera that is damaged, faulty,  and/or would require expensive servicing that would be almost equal the price paid for the camera (in some situations).  Don’t just buy it based on cosmetic appearance as there could be underlying issues at fault inside of the camera. 
 

This is also what gave me pause on pulling the trigger on that M10 I mentioned I almost bought. It was in near-mint condition cosmetically. However, when I first tested it out a few months ago, I discovered a fault with the frame lines that the camera shop totally missed when the previous owner traded it in. It only brought up two of the pairs of frame lines and the incorrect ones that didn’t correspond to the attached lenses. I brought this up to the camera shop owner and indeed it was faulty and had to be sent out to Leica US for repair. Once they got it back to the shop a few weeks later, they gave me a call and said everything was fixed. It appeared everything was fine and the cosmetic condition of the camera was near perfect but I still was hesitant that after I bought it, more issues on this copy could crop up and need to be sent out for further servicing (and money!). 
 

This is what influenced me to snag the brand new M 240, knowing I would be the first owner of the camera and likely be able to get 6-8 years out of it (fingers crossed) before it needs any type of servicing or craps out on me.  
 

Leica will eventually stop servicing the M 240 and stop having replacement parts available for it (like they recently did with the sensor replacements for the M9) and it will happen sooner than it will for the M10 variants but if you’re lucky enough to find a new or excellent condition version of an M 240/MP 240 and take care of it, this shouldn’t be a major concern and you’ll be able to get several years use out of it before that day comes. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by AimClickCapture

[martinot]

If budget is a concern, I would get a 240 in a good shape (still a fantastic camera), and instead spend more money on the lenses. For me optics always have priority over camera bodies.

If budget is unlimited (not for me), I would skip M10 and instead go directly for M10R.

PS. I also love the Fujifilm mirror less X system; great cameras and fantastic lenses.

[Jinesh]

On 10/21/2020 at 4:55 AM, Jinesh said:

Looking to get my first Leica body and I am debating between a Typ 240 and the new M10.

I would be purchasing pre-owned and from some scouring I can see I can pick up a 240 for approximately $3000 USD at best (maybe $4000 CAD) and an M10 for about $6200 USD at best (approx $8000 CAD).

Everything in me says for a first-time shooter twice the price for the body is just not worth it, and I should invest that $4000 in accessories and lenses. I must admit I am leaning toward using Voigtlander glass vs. Leica glass as I have seen incredible results from their 50 f/1.5 aspherical and their 35 f/1.2 which are the two focal lengths I use. Both can be had fairly cheap. If I'm honestly considering stretching my budget to $8000 CAD I could invest in something originally Leica as well.

Just curious what everything thinks for a first-time shooter, if I should invest in the new model so I'm good for years, or should I stick to the 240 for now and figure things out later on?

I have been progressively pairing down and simplifying my photography as the years have gone by. Went from Nikon with a crap ton of gear to realizing I only like 35 and 50 on full-frame and now I've sold my full-frame setup and switched to, believe it or not, a Fuji X100.

My slow, deliberate style of shooting and mostly shooting in manual on the X100 has taught me that maybe Leica is the next foray.

I lean toward the Typ 240 because:

• Cost https://speedtest.vet/ https://vidmate.bid/ 

• Video capability (if I ever want it)

• Compatibility with the Olympus EVF; I find EVFs very helpful on occasion

I lean toward the M10 because:

• Significantly thinner

• Better performance

• Future-proofing

• Wifi. I love being out and about and being able to transfer a photo to my phone and instantly edit and share. My X100 has this and I love it.

Any thoughts??

Eh? Ignoring all your Leica commentary, which seems reasonable. (I do like Voigtländer, but it's personal choice!) Oh, except for buying an M9. Don't buy an M9. Srsly.

Anyway - cheap and plastic? Doesn't fit my experience of the Fujifilm X-Series. They're lightweight, but they're metal build, high quality cameras with great fit and finish. Which models are you thinking of, specifically?

[Al Brown]

As a Pro I still find the M10 a very viable choice today. My M240 (2013 tech) OTOH is starting to bug me with the tiny buffer, the mediocre DR and those banding greens in the shadows. But for holding the M240 is really nice. I even had a custom leather replacement at Leica Germany.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Al Brown

[Ernstk]

51 minutes ago, Jinesh said:

Anyway - cheap and plastic? Doesn't fit my experience of the Fujifilm X-Series. They're lightweight, but they're metal build, high quality cameras with great fit and finish. Which models are you thinking of, specifically?

Where are you quoting this from? I don't see any reference to 'cheap and plastic' anywhere in this thread.

Ernst

[martinot]

10 hours ago, Al Brown said:

As a Pro I still find the M10 a very viable choice today. My M240 (2013 tech) OTOH is starting to bug me with the tiny buffer, the mediocre DR and those banding greens in the shadows. But for holding the M240 is really nice. I even had a custom leather replacement at Leica Germany.

Yes, the ISO/DR on 240 is not top notch any longer. Technology marches fast in some areas. I think it was OK for 2013, and about what Canon had at the time on their DSLRs.

M10 ISO and DR is better, but also M10R is a yet big step again above that. So if money is no concern go for M10R.

If money is a big concern I think the M240 still is a great camera for most situations, and you get a truly great camera for cheap (for being a Leica digital rangefinder).

Regarding the buffer, this has always been a problem on all digital Leicas.

For the 240 series, I can recommend trying to see if it possible to find either the P-versions or the M-E-version. They both have the double amount of buffer RAM, and it makes a huge difference.

[52K]

On 10/21/2020 at 1:08 PM, easy_action said:

I would second this.  Unless you are desperate for the M10 viewfinder (I didn't notice much difference) and/or regularly shoot at ISO 3200 or above, I would save your money and put it towards something else.  Used M10's will get cheaper in time and you can pick one up later if you want to upgrade.

One practical advantage of the M240 is the battery, which is good for nearly double the number of exposures in my experience.

Me too, M240 does 90% of what the M10 can do. I have both and the M240 has an amazing battery life, the M10 does not. If you have limited funds put your money into lenses. Leica glass is amazing and there is plenty to chose from on the second hand market. You can always upgrade to an M10, M10P, or M10R at a later stage. M240's second hand are roughly half the price of a second hand M10. Camera body lose their value slowly, but lenses, tend to hold their value well.

[goorackerelite]

I list for the latest and greatest but the battery life on the 240 is what ultimately what convinced me to acuiqre said camera. also it’s about 1/2 the price of the M10 but certainly not 1/2 performance. In practice I actually like camera that have less DR and iso rangeX I find the colors more luminous and pixels to “bite” more 

[Herr Barnack]

@Jinesh If you are going with the M240, get the M-P 240 for the increased buffer size.  My M240 used to freeze up due to a data log jam in the buffer and I would have to turn the camera off and remove the battery to unlock it, which was quite inconvenient and annoying.  This did not happen with my M-P 240 when I traded up.

As for M-P 240 vs. M10, if funds allow, the M10 would be my choice.  The M-P 240's Achilles' heel (IMHO) is its modest ISO capability.  The M10's maximum ISO of 50,000 is compelling, as is its improved shutter which is 50% more quiet than the M-P 240's.

As for lenses, Leica M glass is without equal; that said, the Voigtlander APO-LANTHAR 35mm f/2.0 Aspherical and the Voigtlander APO-LANTHAR 50mm f/2.0 Aspherical have gotten rave reviews and each has an enthusiastic and dedicated following.  These two lenses appear to offer an outstanding level of performance for their asking prices.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[NZDavid]

I moved from M9 to M10, chiefly because of the sensor corrosion issue, and skipped the M240. In terms of handling, I have found the differences between all Leica Ms to be minimal; in other words, you get used to minor variations very quickly.

However, the M10's better dynamic range and higher ISO performance did make a more noticeable difference -- I am not sure how different they are between the M240 and M10. If you can make the push, I would go for the newer model -- in the digital world, a few years does make a difference as technology evolves, unlike film Ms which are already a mature product.

Voigtländer lenses have a good reputation, but I don't own any. Do check the size and weight difference. Lenses are investments that will last many decades.

[Martin B]

I was lucky and got the handle on a used but mint Leica M-E 240 which is otherwise hard to find used since only about 800 copies were made in 2019 when the M10 was already produced. Similar to the M 240-P, it also comes with a 2 GB buffer but is the much cheaper alternative. The M-E 240 has the same options as all the other M 240 cameras. It is only limited with the handgrip accessory where supposedly not all functions work in combination with the M-E 240. Since I rarely need higher ISO than 1600, this camera was a no-brainer to go for instead of paying nearly 3x as much for a used M10. I just wish sometimes the M 240's sensor dynamic range would be better - highlight recovery is nearly impossible with this sensor, so avoid at all cost highlight clipping. But the color gamut in the photos is amazing and reminds me a lot on Kodak Ektar 100 film which I like. The monochrome camera mode is very good, too. I have no regret at all going with this M 240 series camera version - I likely will at some point in the future directly go for a M10-R or some other future model. 

I am using this camera only with uncoded Leica M and vintage LTM lenses, also with a range of Voigtlander M lenses. They all work perfectly fine with the sensor. 

[Adam Bonn]

To be fair quite a few M10 owners state to be very wary of clipping highlights too.

I haven't got an M10 (I'm sure it'll happen some day, GAS is always present!) but if one isn't desperate for the improved VF, the improved EVF and doesn't often need high ISO (>1600), where I think it's safe to say that M10 enjoys it's biggest advantage (over the 240), then the M240 is still a good performer

[Torontoamateur]

Get the M240 and run it to death. It has lots of life left and the images are stunning.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[martinot]

On 5/13/2021 at 7:35 PM, Martin B said:

I was lucky and got the handle on a used but mint Leica M-E 240 which is otherwise hard to find used since only about 800 copies were made in 2019 when the M10 was already produced. Similar to the M 240-P, it also comes with a 2 GB buffer but is the much cheaper alternative. The M-E 240 has the same options as all the other M 240 cameras. It is only limited with the handgrip accessory where supposedly not all functions work in combination with the M-E 240.

I think, if you can find a good one like you did, that the M-E 240 is a fantastic value.

Personally I also love and prefer the unique matte grey paint job (just like I prefer the M9 M-E over the normal M9).

Excellent find!

 

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Edited May 15, 2021 by martinot