SL2-S

[Steven]

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Just now, scott kirkpatrick said:

SL2 had several promised functions that did not appear until firmware 20, about 6 months into the product life.  This is getting to be a pattern -- get the product out, state the goals, and then work over time to deliver all of them, but not all at once...  I'll bet some of the SL2-S video facilities take their time arriving.

Scott, if I remember correctly you shoot on the sl2 and the M10R ? How has that been going for you ? 

[padam]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Thanks. In that case it's done so they can get an even number of pixels for over-sampling.

According to specifications, the SL2 has 8368 pixels horizontally. UHD is 3840 pixels across. Double that (=7680), and multiply by 1.09. The actual crop ratio is 1.0896 (if the pixel numbers are correct), which is close enough to 1.09.

In other words, they over-sample by a ratio of 2:1 to get UHD out of the 47MP sensor. Which is exactly what anyone would do with the same sensor, since oversampling 2.17916667:1 would give you more aliasing. Try resizing an image by 8.96% in an image editor to get an idea of what would happen.

Unfortunately this is not the case. In that case, the SL2 4K image would be 'perfect' and it clearly isn't (but it is still fairly good overall)

There is only one camera that can do full oversampling at such a high megapixel count and that is the Canon EOS R5 and with the cutting edge AF system, it is a camera that may sway away some potential customers. Unfortunately, maybe intentionally they did not provide the appropritate cooling, so it will have a strong tendency to overheat.
The next generation of the Sony A9 line (A9III?) is also rumoured to do that. But oversampling only applies to the 8k30p or 4k HQ 30p mode, FF 4k60p will be a big step down in terms of quality (so that could be comparable to the SL2, but there is the possibility to use the 5K oversampled crop mode instead)
In theory, with active sensor heating, the sensors in these cameras should be fast enough to read out the whole sensor at twice the frame rate.

Unfortunately the SL2 sensor isn't nearly as advanced, the readout is not this blazing fast.
The APS-C mode which can be recorded in 5K you can see below is a lot sharper and less noisy in the SL2 so only that is when oversampling is active, otherwise in this specific case it is probably a 2x2 pixel binning in FF mode which is a decent way to throw away data, that is why there is that 1.09x crop, otherwise it would be worse still.
 

In conclusion: the SL2-S FF 4k30p video will be a lot sharper and less noisy with better dynamic range.
It will be even superior to the 5K shown here, because it will be derived from 6K without cropping and the ISO sensitivity for video will be right at that top level.

Edited December 8, 2020 by padam

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[scott kirkpatrick]

9 hours ago, Steven said:

Scott, if I remember correctly you shoot on the sl2 and the M10R ? How has that been going for you ? 

I'm happy with both.  I'm sending off my SL[601]s and little-used Fuji gear to pay for an SL2-S   Then, once again, I will tell myself I am set for life.  I'll try to keep one SL[601] around long enough to see how the three SL chips compare.  I had given up on Leica for video (the two M4/3 platforms do an excellent job and I have some Olympus equipment) but will try again with the SL2-S once its firmware is complete early next year.

Edited December 9, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Steven]

1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I'm happy with both.  I'm sending off my SL[601]s and little-used Fuji gear to pay for an SL2-S   Then, once again, I will tell myself I am set for life.  I'll try to keep one SL[601] around long enough to see how the three SL chips compare.  I had given up on Leica for video (the two M4/3 platforms do an excellent job and I have some Olympus equipment) but will try again with the SL2-S once its firmware is complete early next year.

Interesting. What made you give up on video with Leica ? 

[sebben]

Video from Leica thus far has been sub par. Either aliasing, bad codecs, poor noise  performance or shoddy noise reduction.

 It’s an embarrassment that they keep pretending to have professional quality when they clearly don’t.  

perhaps this time they have managed to get it to the same level as the S1. 

[lx1713]

19 minutes ago, sebben said:

Video from Leica thus far has been sub par. Either aliasing, bad codecs, poor noise  performance or shoddy noise reduction.

 It’s an embarrassment that they keep pretending to have professional quality when they clearly don’t.  

perhaps this time they have managed to get it to the same level as the S1. 

I do video on a very limited basis. My clients and I've been pretty happy with the Leica files. I'm interested in which codecs you would like to see implemented that mades a difference 😊

[sebben]

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I'm a professional cinematographer shooting commercials, features and documentaries so my requirements are higher than most. Let's put it this way. Panasonic have managed to make a good mirrorless camera for professional use with the S1H. If Leica is serious about video they would at least match those specifications. 

 

[Steven]

9 minutes ago, sebben said:

I'm a professional cinematographer shooting commercials, features and documentaries so my requirements are higher than most. Let's put it this way. Panasonic have managed to make a good mirrorless camera for professional use with the S1H. If Leica is serious about video they would at least match those specifications. 

 

Quick question, if you use you mirrorless for professional video work, have you considered the A7SIII? Cause that's a real video beast! 

[sebben]

I don't use mirrorless cameras for professional work. It would be nice to have a small light camera for some applications to use with the Leica M lenses.

[kengai]

who benefits from the fewest pixels?

Edited December 9, 2020 by kengai

[Steven]

Just now, kengai said:

who benefits from the fewest pixels?

lol

[caissa]

9 minutes ago, Steven said:

Quick question, if you use you mirrorless for professional video work, have you considered the A7SIII? Cause that's a real video beast! 

The a7s iii is overrated in my eyes. The colors in high iso are just as bad as in the predecessors. Hardly any improvement after so many years. Canon D6 looked the same already x years ago. (x = 6-8, I can’t remember exactly, so long ago).

Edited December 9, 2020 by caissa

[Steven]

Just now, caissa said:

The a7s iii is overrated in my eyes. The colors are just as bad as in the predecessors. Hardly any improvement after so many years. Canon D6 looked the same already x years ago. (x = 6-8, I can’t remember exactly, so long ago).

Being: 

1. A lover of colours

2. A hater of Sony

3. A user of the Sony A7SIII since mid September, 

I can assure you with the utmost confidence that you are entirely wrong, subjectivity of tastes aside. Unfounded statements like these are actually the proof that the a7SIII is underated. I have been able to use if for video with out of the box settings, which used to be impossible with Sony, and the colours for video are the best on the market available today. More malleable in post than the R5 which ive also used extensively. For photos, the colours are great too. As a matter of fact, I posted over a 100 side by side photos in another thread of the 12MP A7SIII with M lenses vs the M10P and M10R, and no one could ever tell the difference because they mostly looked identical. Whenever there was a difference, the readers usually preferred the Sony. 

To me, the real difference is in the lenses, not the sensors and color sciences. I still prefer the feel of shooting with a Leica, that's why im here, but the Sony is NOT overrated. Maybe to you only. Its a beast of a HYBRID camera. Both stills and videos. 

[Steven]

9 minutes ago, sebben said:

It would be nice to have a small light camera for some applications to use with the Leica M lenses

Sony A7SIII, metabones adapter. Tried it with the 28 lux, 35 lux, 50 lux. Results are on par or better than with an M. Both photos and videos. 

Only problem: it's a Sony camera. It's uninspiring. It doesn't procure you the sensations of a Leica. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Steven

[sebben]

Quote

 

Only problem: it's a Sony camera. It's uninspiring. It doesn't procure you the sensations of a Leica. 

This is indeed the problem, it doesn't have prestige like the red dot and far too many buttons

Edited December 9, 2020 by sebben

[caissa]

20 minutes ago, Steven said:

Being: 

1. A lover of colours

2. A hater of Sony

3. A user of the Sony A7SIII since mid September, 

I can assure you with the utmost confidence that you are entirely wrong, subjectivity of tastes aside. Unfounded statements like these are actually the proof that the a7SIII is underated. I have been able to use if for video with out of the box settings, which used to be impossible with Sony, and the colours for video are the best on the market available today. More malleable in post than the R5 which ive also used extensively. For photos, the colours are great too. As a matter of fact, I posted over a 100 side by side photos in another thread of the 12MP A7SIII with M lenses vs the M10P and M10R, and no one could ever tell the difference because they mostly looked identical. Whenever there was a difference, the readers usually preferred the Sony. 

To me, the real difference is in the lenses, not the sensors and color sciences. I still prefer the feel of shooting with a Leica, that's why im here, but the Sony is NOT overrated. Maybe to you only. Its a beast of a HYBRID camera. Both stills and videos. 

I would prefer the S1 or the R6 to the Sony.   Results are simply better.   So hopefully the SL2-S will follow the S1 path.

Now I just wonder what phantastic reasons you will find again for my choice.  

Not that it is important, but on fora (in the web) many have a similar opinion (they are probably all Sony haters 🤩).

“It’s a beast” - What should that mean ? Are cameras beasts ?

Edited December 9, 2020 by caissa

[MediaFotografie]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

SL2 had several promised functions that did not appear until firmware 20, about 6 months into the product life.  This is getting to be a pattern -- get the product out, state the goals, and then work over time to deliver all of them, but not all at once...  I'll bet some of the SL2-S video facilities take their time arriving.

 

Hi Scott, I think, this is not true; the only thing that thy have to complement is the high res mode - and this was announced in the first days of SL2.

ok, and a better FOTOS APP, we know...

[scott kirkpatrick]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

Interesting. What made you give up on video with Leica ? 

A bunch of things, any one of which could have been solved with a tiny effort.  Lack of time to practice and infrequent, but complex  jobs that i shot -- capturing theater performances with multiple cameras running more than 29 minutes, making exposure and focus changes during a sequence.  I found I could solve my first steps problems with Olympus M4/3 cameras and their very nice, stabilized zoom lenses, using auto ISO to manage exposure changes.  Leica now has (in the SL2) gotten to a clean separation between video setup and management and still photo parameters,  so I expect that the control issues are much easier now.  But I still ended up shooting a nephew's bar mitzvah recently with a handheld E-M1 v iii and the 25-100 zoom resting on its tabletop tripod in my lap, and the results were quite good.

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

Quick question, if you use you mirrorless for professional video work, have you considered the A7SIII? Cause that's a real video beast! 

From a professional standpoint, you would most likely choose a hybrid/mirrorless camera that matches your main camera. That means Sony if you use one of their excellent professional camcorders, Canon (the C70, not the R5) if you use a C-series video camera, Panasonic if you use an EVA or Varicam, Blackmagic if you are in that ecosystem. That is the path of least resistance as far as colour-matching, lens compatibility, and post workflow are concerned.

Leica isn't in a strong position here. They have chosen to model their video colour science on Arri, which is great, but they haven't provided the tools and support that the major players have. Nikon is arguably even worse-off, their mirrorless hybrids don't pair-up with any professional video standard, and they don't make their own video cameras.

None of these hybrid cams is significantly better than the others. They each have a few compelling features, but not enough to mix systems for. The A7SIII for instance has great low-light sensitivity, but it doesn't offer APS-C (Super-35) UHD, which can rule it out for B-Cam work.

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[ruskkyle]

15 minutes ago, BernardC said:

From a professional standpoint, you would most likely choose a hybrid/mirrorless camera that matches your main camera.
...
That is the path of least resistance as far as colour-matching, lens compatibility, and post workflow are concerned.

This is exactly right. As a professional shooter myself, kit acquisition chooses are led almost entirely by the preference or workflow of my clients. Which can be a bit of a pain if some favour C100/300s and others FS7s.

It’s a fascinating time to be upgrading given the wealth of new releases (I would certainly go for the FX6 over an A7SIII) but Leica being an outlier in the video world, is at a bit of a disadvantage.