SL2-S

[Ken Abrahams]

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12 hours ago, Pippin said:

Personally why would  they put out a 24mp FF camera when they are already using 40+mp in their full frame cameras. Doesn’t seem to make a compelling buy - how is that materially better than a SL or CL. 

Now if it’s  size were between the SL AND CL you have something to replace the APS-C line as it seems to be dying a slow death for Leica. I would miss my CL only if it’s replacement came at the cost of it’s portability for travel and just carrying a camera when out and about. 

The bigger the size of the sensor doesn't mean that pictures are better in my view.  I am happy with the SL image quality and the lenses I use however I would be interested in the SL2S because of the IS and ergonomics etc.  Combinations of sensors and lenses have their own way of rendering and I would prefer the 24 mp's size. One can say the same thing about the M10M sensor versus the M Monochrom (M9M) sensor and the way the image renders and that M9M sensor is only 18 mp/s

[padam]

18 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Still, I'll be curious to see if the -S does a  better job on battery life.

The S1 and S1R are nearly identical, so I would expect it to be just like the SL2.
When you are continously powering up a high-res EVF or LCD screen with a powerful IBIS, it's going to chew through batteries rather quickly.

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[Steven]

2 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

Combinations of sensors and lenses have their own way of rendering and I would prefer the 24 mp's size

Oh well, there’s a 30 page thread on the difference in aesthetics between 24 and 40mp. It’s quite a polarizing topic, your contribution would be useful. 
I believe there is a massive difference in aesthetics between 24 and 40+ mp in the final image. 

[caissa]

The camera will probably be announced in December, but that is too late for the Xmas business. Then also the worldwide Covid crisis. And with 24 MP it is not terribly sexy. (Similar to what others offer since 1 or 2 years at an entry price. OK, body and CPU will be better than these entry offerings, but still.) Will this be a good business for Leica or maybe rather a flop ?!

I think they take a lot of risk, for “little” gain.

Edited December 7, 2020 by caissa

[Chaemono]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb caissa:

The camera will probably be announced in December, but that is too late for the Xmas business. Then also the worldwide Covid crisis. And with 24 MP it is not terribly sexy. (Similar to what others offer since 1 or 2 years at an entry price. OK, body and CPU will be better than these entry offerings, but still.) Will this be a good business for Leica or maybe rather a flop ?!

I think they take a lot of risk, for “little” gain.

It will have a full-size HDMI connection and no obnoxious shutter sound. Worth a couple of thousand bucks over the S5 to some.

[ruskkyle]

Surely the headline here is the extended ‘S’ensitivity and boost in low light performance without giving up any of the main features of the SL2 (bar resolution).

I’m not sure what is so ‘sexy’ about high resolution anyway for the average user making nice prints, and certainly for the hybrid video shooter.

Edited December 7, 2020 by ruskkyle

[Aaron Daniel]

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1 minute ago, ruskkyle said:

Surely the headline feature here is the extended ‘S’ensitivity and boost in low light performance without giving up any of the headline features of the SL2 (bar resolution).

I’m not sure what’s so ‘sexy’ about high resolution anyway for the average user and certainly for the hybrid video shooter.

Agreed. The high resolution is fantastic if that is your main goal, but I do miss the manageable megapixel count and low-light sensitivity of my old A7 bodies. I made the jump from Sony at the beginning of the year, which I don't regret (even with their new A7Siii out now), but I do hope the SL2-S serves the low-light community a little nicer. My personal reason for the SL2 was for the better video capabilities, reliable photography system, and overall brand recognition (it started getting a little weird seeing wedding guests pull out their Leicas while I'm still using years-old equipment). I do believe it is the artist behind the camera, but it would be fantastic to match a personal/business brand aesthetic with the equipment of choice. If anyone is interested, I just placed my SL2 for sale 😅

[Steven]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgKGj5LK9B/?igshid=175lvosw29swz
 

first reference to the December 10 date I gave you a few weeks ago. Doesn’t look like a new camera announcement but I don’t lose hope that my info was right. 

[padam]

6 hours ago, caissa said:

The camera will probably be announced in December, but that is too late for the Xmas business. Then also the worldwide Covid crisis. And with 24 MP it is not terribly sexy. (Similar to what others offer since 1 or 2 years at an entry price. OK, body and CPU will be better than these entry offerings, but still.) Will this be a good business for Leica or maybe rather a flop ?!

I think they take a lot of risk, for “little” gain.

The SL2 already created a bit mixed impressions over the original SL as realy not everybody wanted more megapixels, but they wanted the IBIS or other new features, so this model was absolutely necessary and it is not suprising they've kept the same body to keep it simple and straightforward (and to sell at a more profitable price).

24MP is a much better fit for a hybrid camera, here are some reasons why:
- better ISO from the sensor means better AF in low light, less noisy EVF in low light
- faster readout means better video capabilities and more usable electronic shutter for a completely silent operation (less rolling shutter )
- very sharp FF 4k video (up to 30p) without pixel binning or line-skipping with Leica colours
- less data to process for stills as well (to dual SD cards), it won't bog down when shooting multiple bursts (quicker to review or to batch post-process as well)
- more affordable, great companion to the SL2, same ergonomics, etc.

Different models for different needs, but many shared parts, it is exactly what they need to do.
This camera is probably going to be very popular, as there are so many people out there with a nice collection of vintage glass and now they can use them to shoot stills and video with them with great results and this camera won't have the smearing problems present in Panasonic bodies (unless modified=no warranty).

[Pixeleater]

The one factor that stands out from my experience with the M10R is the value of good technical skills. High resolution cameras essentially “amplify” everything greatly, whether it is camera shake caused by poor hand-holding technique, shutter vibrations originating from the camera, poor focusing technique, unstable tripod, slight wind or other various causes of blur in images such as my hand tremors. IBIS is important and now I can choose between sensor size. Large pixel vs small pixel, the debate continues.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Pixeleater said:

...and now I can choose between sensor size. Large pixel vs small pixel, the debate continues.

Pedant alert... pixel size, not sensor size (same). 

Sorry, pet peeve.

Jeff

[Pixeleater]

No worries. Was covering bases.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Pixeleater said:

Was covering bases.

??  To be clear, sensor size is identical between cameras. No choice on that basis. Just different MP.

Jeff

[Pixeleater]

20 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

??  To be clear, sensor size is identical between cameras. No choice on that basis. Just different MP.

Jeff

Jeff, for some less pedantic types either characterization seems to work. I don’t disagree with you, just saying.

[Chaemono]

In photography subculture, sensor size seems to have become synonymous with pixel size when used in the right context. 

[Slender]

10 hours ago, padam said:

24MP is a much better fit for a hybrid camera, here are some reasons why:
- better ISO from the sensor means better AF in low light, less noisy EVF in low light
- faster readout means better video capabilities and more usable electronic shutter for a completely silent operation (less rolling shutter )
- very sharp FF 4k video (up to 30p) without pixel binning or line-skipping with Leica colours

 

There HAS to be some skipping/binning/mixing to get a 4K image from a 24MP sensor in FF, because 24MP equals a 6K image. In real world, pixel to pixel readout does reduce readout time and alliasing, but produces a less sharp image because there is no downscalling.

A 9Mp (UHD) or 12MP (DCI) sensor pixel count is sufficient to give you a pixel-to-pixel image on FF size.

24MP is 6k FF, or 4K s35 (like the old SL did to shoot video.)

36 to 45MP (depending on w/h ratio) is 8k territory.

The "real" pixel to pixel ratio of the SL2 is to be found in s35 5K mode, in 4/3 ratio. I wish they will make this one compatible with 422.

[padam]

19 minutes ago, Slender said:

There HAS to be some skipping/binning/mixing to get a 4K image from a 24MP sensor in FF, because 24MP equals a 6K image. In real world, pixel to pixel readout does reduce readout time and alliasing, but produces a less sharp image because there is no downscalling.

A 9Mp (UHD) or 12MP (DCI) sensor pixel count is sufficient to give you a pixel-to-pixel image on FF size.

24MP is 6k FF, or 4K s35 (like the old SL did to shoot video.)

36 to 45MP (depending on w/h ratio) is 8k territory.

The "real" pixel to pixel ratio of the SL2 is to be found in s35 5K mode, in 4/3 ratio. I wish they will make this one compatible with 422.

Yes it is downsampled from 6K (up to 4K30p with 4K60p it will crop to APS-C mode) so unlike the SL2 it will keep the dynamic range and signal to noise ratio high for video, it should be about two stops better with regards to ISO for video, a big difference.
And yes due to line-skipping the SL2 has slightly better rolling shutter in FF (1.09x crop) mode (About 16ms versus 20ms) but for stills images with the electronic shutter the SL2-S will have way less rolling shutter.

[Slender]

I am not sure the SL2 uses line skipping, but pixel mixing... that can explain the alliasing issues in some FF modes.. which also give us this wonderful sharpness in the image. In s35 the rolling shutter falls below 10ms and is very good. I am still getting more jobs in still than moving image atm, but pairing/downgrading to SL2-s could be an interesting options for video work indeed.

[padam]

As with the Panasonic S1 or S5 cameras, they can also enable C4K(up to 60p) Prores RAW HDMI output in the APS-C crop mode on the SL2-S, it is something that might be coming many months later after its introduction, and it would lift it further ahead from the SL2 for video and to keep the demand up.

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[Stuart Richardson]

I find it interesting at all the criticism directed towards the camera. Leica is doing what every single other company has done, which is to sell a lower res version of the same body to market to people who: 1. Do not care about resolution. 2. Prefer better high ISO performance. 3. Want better video. 4. Want to pay as little as possible for the modern tech. If you don't want to do that, you can get the more expensive higher resolution model, which in this case is the SL2. They are doing literally the exact same thing as Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Nikon. Clearly this is a strategy that works...you save on all the tooling and R&D of creating a completely different body, and you satisfy a greater proportion of users. If you introduce the more expensive one first, you get more buyers at a higher profit as well, as you sell cameras to the people who would want that body, but also to the people who would be satisfied with the cheaper one, but prefer to buy the newer model immediately. Those same people might still buy the lower rez body later, meaning you get two sales. Once you are done satisfying demand for the higher rez body, the lower cost one comes out and you get a wider group of buyers as well as some of the initial group who might have wanted it as a backup or for the low light/video abilities. It seems like this is one of those cases where everybody wins...buyers get more choice and the company gets more sales for minimum additional effort.