How to get skin tone like classical B&W film

[250swb]

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8 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

 

So the only practical method is to match it meticulously through the 6-color channel equalizer (in LR), when desired and when it makes sense.

You started the thread with a whole raft of non sequiturs and now you are carrying it on. It doesn't need to be as complicated as you apparently want it to be.

Simply open a colour portrait in ACR, and choose the Profile as Adobe Monochrome. Go along to the colour channels 'HSL' but in Monochrome mode it's called 'Black and White Mix' Play with the red channel slider and see how the skin tones get lighter or darker. Simple? Exactly the same can be done in Silver Efex except this uses film terminology, so open it with a colour portrait, apply a colour filter, red for example, and skin tones will become lighter, adjust the strength of the filter and fine tune it's hue with the sliders. Simple? You can make it more complicated, but there is no such thing as "So the only practical method is to match it meticulously through the 6-color channel equalizer (in LR)....."

It should also be noted that in Silver Efex there are presets that match the spectral sensitivity of different films if that is what you are after, although the accuracy of these can depend on the colour quality of the input image. Nevertheless within the chosen preset you can further adjust colour sensitivity, levels and curves, and grain quality. Again, simple?

[Stuart Richardson]

While Adan's post was very informative. I think that the spectral sensitivity curve of the digital sensor is a bit of a red herring, as the sensor uses more green pixels than red or blue, as part of the bayer matrix. The raw converter takes that information and converts it into a tonality which is very different than the spectral response of the sensor. So while it is interesting to note, I don't think it is particularly useful in comparison to the spectral sensitivity of black and white film, which is, before processing anyway, simply inverted for its final presentation.

As for skin tone overall, I think you got some good advice. It is an interplay between lighting and inherent characteristics of the film. I think you should consider trying a few filters on your digital camera to see if it improves things for you. Moving sliders around seldom works as well as changing the light the camera received to begin with. The downside, of course, is that you will not be able to use those photos as color, if you decide after the fact.

As for film simulations, the best ones I have seen are True Grain, but that is a totally different animal than most. It is a stand alone program that layers your image with scans of actual grain form a library of films, and then maps a spectral sensitivity curve onto it for those films, as well as with different filters. Since they are layering actual film, some of the films have some artifacts (like bands of tonality etc). But in terms of simulation, it does a very good job, and the grain is more natural than most I have seen. You have to make things medium format though...they have the grain intensity too high in my opinion.

These are not portraits, but two photos from the Leica S that are manipulated and then I used true grain to give them a natural grain as they were printed huge and at that size the digital smoothness looked bad. It is probably hard to tell the grain this small though...just as likely to be jpeg noise or interpolation errors.

 

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Edited October 21, 2020 by Stuart Richardson

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[Dr. G]

Just an FYI for anyone who has thought about this... I tried to use physical colored filters with the SL2 (red, dark red, orange, yellow, green and green-yellow) to try to achieve some of the results that one used to be able to get with B&W film.  What I found was that, with a color sensor, this approach doesn't really work.  My goal was to do the monochrome conversion in software after taking the image with the filter in place.  I would assume that with a monochrome sensor this approach may work - but I had better results applying the virtual color filters in Silver Efex Pro.

[Pyrogallol]

The answer to the question is to use film.

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

While Adan's post was very informative. I think that the spectral sensitivity curve of the digital sensor is a bit of a red herring, as the sensor uses more green pixels than red or blue, as part of the bayer matrix. The raw converter takes that information and converts it into a tonality which is very different than the spectral response of the sensor. So while it is interesting to note, I don't think it is particularly useful in comparison to the spectral sensitivity of black and white film, which is, before processing anyway, simply inverted for its final presentation.

As for skin tone overall, I think you got some good advice. It is an interplay between lighting and inherent characteristics of the film. I think you should consider trying a few filters on your digital camera to see if it improves things for you. Moving sliders around seldom works as well as changing the light the camera received to begin with. The downside, of course, is that you will not be able to use those photos as color, if you decide after the fact.

As for film simulations, the best ones I have seen are True Grain, but that is a totally different animal than most. It is a stand alone program that layers your image with scans of actual grain form a library of films, and then maps a spectral sensitivity curve onto it for those films, as well as with different filters. Since they are layering actual film, some of the films have some artifacts (like bands of tonality etc). But in terms of simulation, it does a very good job, and the grain is more natural than most I have seen. You have to make things medium format though...they have the grain intensity too high in my opinion.

These are not portraits, but two photos from the Leica S that are manipulated and then I used true grain to give them a natural grain as they were printed huge and at that size the digital smoothness looked bad. It is probably hard to tell the grain this small though...just as likely to be jpeg noise or interpolation errors.

 

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I can think of spectral sensitivity compensation to enhance the human visual preference on the color shots. Theoretically it can be done but a film-simulation SW to reduce the hassles. 

But this is not possible with the direct monochrome sensors. I wonder how Leica Monochrome achieves the pleasing tonality (its own pleasing flavor, not necessary simulates any film.).   

[Einst_Stein]

41 minutes ago, Dr. G said:

Just an FYI for anyone who has thought about this... I tried to use physical colored filters with the SL2 (red, dark red, orange, yellow, green and green-yellow) to try to achieve some of the results that one used to be able to get with B&W film.  What I found was that, with a color sensor, this approach doesn't really work.  My goal was to do the monochrome conversion in software after taking the image with the filter in place.  I would assume that with a monochrome sensor this approach may work - but I had better results applying the virtual color filters in Silver Efex Pro.

I have similar observation. I think Adan and Stuart may have pointed out the issue (sensor spectral sensitivity and color sensor raw conversion algorithm).,

I guess maybe this is why the digital (post processing) color filter (photoshop command) is a better solution. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Einst_Stein

[Einst_Stein]

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37 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

The answer to the question is to use film.

No, even the modern films are different from the classical film's tonal appearance. 

[andybarton]

I think that if you look hard enough, you should be able to find films that are pretty close to those made 50 or more years ago.

They won't be from the usual suspects, but they may be from a company such as Adox, for example.

[Jeff S]

Achieving different black and white tonalities and tonal relationships in the digital realm involves more than playing with color channels in post (even though this approach offers more flexibility than using colored glass filters on a monochrome digital camera... or with film).

Beyond subject lighting at capture, which is critical, there are many other available controls in post, including exposure and contrast, both global and local. Film has a built in characteristic contrast curve, while digital output tends to be far more linear out of camera, especially with high dynamic range camera output. One can introduce myriad possible tonal effects by adjusting this curve and further applying local adjustments. Add to this all kinds of effects that might be derived from grain, clarity, texture and various other controls. Even then, one person’s interpretation of “classic” skin tones might be very different than another’s.  Then there is display lighting, which can change tonal renderings all over again.  
 

It’s a whole chain of considerations. This includes shooting, editing and printing workflows and is hardly plug and play.  It requires a good eye and good judgment on an image specific basis, even though one can create presets and/or default settings to achieve a more desirable starting point.  But it can be done, especially if variables are controlled to suit one’s style, except that an inkjet print is still not a silver print.
 

Jeff

[evikne]

One thing I've missed from most B&W profiles in LR and other places, is the "charcoal" or "matte" look that comes from a cut-off in the black tones. I love this look. It is possible to make it with the tone curve tool in LR, but it's not so easy to get it right. I've experimented a lot with this, but then I discovered the RNI film simulation profiles, that does it automatically, without touching the curve tool. The histogram clearly shows a cut-off in the shadows and highlights with this Ilford Delta 3200 film simulation profile (I've removed the grain, because I'm mostly interested in the tone curve). 

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[250swb]

2 hours ago, andybarton said:

I think that if you look hard enough, you should be able to find films that are pretty close to those made 50 or more years ago.

They won't be from the usual suspects, but they may be from a company such as Adox, for example.

Adox Silvermax, and Rollei do a range called 'Retro', and Fomapan looks pretty much how it's always been since 1920. It is actually easier now than it was twenty years ago to buy a proper 'classic' film.

Edited October 21, 2020 by 250swb

[andybarton]

I might even have a look in the freezer and get my M2 warmed up again for the first time in years...

[pedaes]

25 minutes ago, andybarton said:

look in the freezer and get my M2 warmed up

Hope it's only the film in the freezer😀

[Einst_Stein]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

One thing I've missed from most B&W profiles in LR and other places, is the "charcoal" or "matte" look that comes from a cut-off in the black tones. I love this look. It is possible to make it with the tone curve tool in LR, but it's not so easy to get it right. I've experimented a lot with this, but then I discovered the RNI film simulation profiles, that does it automatically, without touching the curve tool. The histogram clearly shows a cut-off in the shadows and highlights with this Ilford Delta 3200 film simulation profile (I've removed the grain, because I'm mostly interested in the tone curve). 

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You have a beautiful picture. Thanks for sharing.

I am not looking for everything back to classical film. Every film has its own special taste, not necessary better or worse. But I really like the mentioned classical tonality. Sure, something comes as a package deal. You get what you want and don't. I just wish there is an easy way to get that "common" skin tone in most old films, and not go every little details to match completely.

I still think it's possible theoretically that someone capable to provide a spectral sensitivity matching adjustment macro command. But this demand seems not widely appreciated. Not to mention some people don't even know what we are talking about. 

So,....

 

 

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, andybarton said:

I might even have a look in the freezer and get my M2 warmed up again for the first time in years...

I still have Kodak Verichrome (for portraits) and Agfa APX 25 (for landscape), all in 120,. about 1/3 of my freezer. I am just unwilling to use them unless the situation is really really worth it. Besides, my Hasselblad 500CM is gone (a very very very very evil mistake). The best way to shoot is FUjifilm 680, ..., nay!, too heavy.

 

[Pyrogallol]

5 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

No, even the modern films are different from the classical film's tonal appearance. 

Try an orthochromatic film

https://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Ilford-Ortho-Plus-80-Bamp;W-Film-35mm-36-Exposures/product/1180958/1180958/

[evikne]

40 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

You have a beautiful picture. Thanks for sharing.

I am not looking for everything back to classical film. Every film has its own special taste, not necessary better or worse. But I really like the mentioned classical tonality. Sure, something comes as a package deal. You get what you want and don't. I just wish there is an easy way to get that "common" skin tone in most old films, and not go every little details to match completely.

I still think it's possible theoretically that someone capable to provide a spectral sensitivity matching adjustment macro command. But this demand seems not widely appreciated. Not to mention some people don't even know what we are talking about. 

So,....

Thank you! I've been through exactly the same thoughts myself. I mostly take portraits, so I want to emphasize the skin tones in both color and B&W images, and I've been looking for ways to achieve this. 

I've grown up in the digital age and know very little about film photography. But I still prefer the look of film in many cases, even though my approach to this probably seems strange to those who are familiar with real film. 😉

[Einst_Stein]

22 minutes ago, evikne said:

Thank you! I've been through exactly the same thoughts myself. I mostly take portraits, so I want to emphasize the skin tones in both color and B&W images, and I've been looking for ways to achieve this. 

I've grown up in the digital age and know very little about film photography. But I still prefer the look of film in many cases, even though my approach to this probably seems strange to those who are familiar with real film. 😉

To me the film vs digital is sort of fresco vs water color painting, or any two types of painting mayerial.  You get different feeling, it is not necessary nor possible to match exactly one to the other. Some element of expression may be transferred at most.

 

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

I still think it's possible theoretically that someone capable to provide a spectral sensitivity matching adjustment macro command.

I think for most people that would be a combination of eye and brain and a command of the tools available, the wheel does not need to be invented twice. Unless of course a 'command' can delve into the brain and intuit all the decisions a photographer would make regarding film, developer, development time, print developer, paper contrast.... oh it's just too long a list to say why a dumb 'command' can't beat the eye and brain.

Edited October 21, 2020 by 250swb

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[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, Pyrogallol said:

Try an orthochromatic film

https://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Ilford-Ortho-Plus-80-Bamp;W-Film-35mm-36-Exposures/product/1180958/1180958/

I am afraid you just gave the worst recommendation. I guess you have not shoot your recommended film for portraits unless you are looking for quite opposite skin tone that tends to be darker instead of brighter.