Is this M10 Summary of Features Essentially Correct?

[Tom1234]

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QUESTION

 

In the opinion of you M10 and M10-P owners, is the following description below, of the M10 and M10-P a fair opinion of the M10's abilities?  To put it another way:  Do I understand the M10's and M10-P's position among cameras as a mount for my Leica-M lenses?  I assume that the M10 and M10-P have the same sensor and electronics and software.

 

I have no local camera store carrying Leica within 3 hours drive since they have gone out of business. So I must use internet reports for my next camera purchase.  The below M10 factors are what I have gathered off the internet.

 

STATEMENTS OFF THE INTERNET ABOUT THE M10

 

1- The M10 and M10-P are the prize of, best of, the Leica line for Leica-M lenses.  True/False?

 

2- The M10 m10-P 24meg has the best color balance of all digital M's except maybe the M9?

 

3- The M10-R to get higher resolution, using the smaller 40meg+ sized pixels, has sacrificed the color cast at higher ISO's?

 

If you disagree with #3 see the below post that very clearly illustrates this phenomena, Copy & search for these words inside the parenthesis:  "Above ISO 1600, forget about color" it is on page 30.

 

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/07/16/the-true-successor-to-the-leica-m9-leica-m10r-review/

 

4- The M10/M10-P is significantly lighter and smaller than the SL models making it a better choice for hand held shooting.

 

6- The Nikon Z6 has similar color, and color more saturated than Sony and Canon, making the Nikon's color science similar to the M10's.  This makes the camera, for a number of users, well suited to Leica lenses.  But the Z6's complex menu's and general handling features for Leica M lenses are not as good as an m10's or SL's or SL2's handling features for the Leica M lenses?

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[Tom1234]

18 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

3- The M10-R to get higher resolution, using the smaller 40meg+ sized pixels, has sacrificed the color cast at higher ISO's?

 

If you disagree with #3 see the below post that very clearly illustrates this phenomena, Copy & search for these words inside the parenthesis:  "Above ISO 1600, forget about color" it is on page 30.

 

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/07/16/the-true-successor-to-the-leica-m9-leica-m10r-review/

 

 

As I look on this site he shows skin color off in the dark BUT the fault he finds maybe a simple misunderstanding that as it gets darker a person sees less color so ALSO the camera sees less color as it gets darker.  This may mean that the M10-R's color is very very accurate for the brightness level of the situation. What do you think?

 

[dkmoore]

1. True, but should include M10R

2. False, M10R

3. false, color in general has been slightly better in my experience using the M10R for a few months now and having owned the M10P for years  

4. True

5. true and false. I always prefer native lenses on native camera so I’m subjective on this question. 
 

The M10 platform doesn’t leave much on the table for me and I’ve been incredibly happy using the different iterations. I’d be content with either M10P or M10R. I would skip the M10 base at this point if you can. 

[LBJ2]

19 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

 

QUESTION

 

In the opinion of you M10 and M10-P owners, is the following description below, of the M10 and M10-P a fair opinion of the M10's abilities?  To put it another way:  Do I understand the M10's and M10-P's position among cameras as a mount for my Leica-M lenses?  I assume that the M10 and M10-P have the same sensor and electronics and software.

 

I have no local camera store carrying Leica within 3 hours drive since they have gone out of business. So I must use internet reports for my next camera purchase.  The below M10 factors are what I have gathered off the internet.

 

STATEMENTS OFF THE INTERNET ABOUT THE M10

 

1- The M10 and M10-P are the prize of, best of, the Leica line for Leica-M lenses.  True/False?

 

2- The M10 m10-P 24meg has the best color balance of all digital M's except maybe the M9?

 

3- The M10-R to get higher resolution, using the smaller 40meg+ sized pixels, has sacrificed the color cast at higher ISO's?

 

If you disagree with #3 see the below post that very clearly illustrates this phenomena, Copy & search for these words inside the parenthesis:  "Above ISO 1600, forget about color" it is on page 30.

 

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/07/16/the-true-successor-to-the-leica-m9-leica-m10r-review/

 

4- The M10/M10-P is significantly lighter and smaller than the SL models making it a better choice for hand held shooting.

 

6- The Nikon Z6 has similar color, and color more saturated than Sony and Canon, making the Nikon's color science similar to the M10's.  This makes the camera, for a number of users, well suited to Leica lenses.  But the Z6's complex menu's and general handling features for Leica M lenses are not as good as an m10's or SL's or SL2's handling features for the Leica M lenses?

Looks like you have done your online homework. Whether all your statements can be answered with a black & white, true or false answer will probably lead to offending the sensitivities or opinions of some of this forum so I'll contribute:

-Leica M series cameras are the very best for extracting the best IQ Leica M lenses have to offer. The M10 series uses the latest sensor technology with the M10M and R the very latest sensor technology. Second best for Leica M lenses is Leica SL2/SL

-Leica M is a tiny compact FF system( camera + lenses). Leica SL/2 is a large system (camera + lenses). * The SL/2 body itself however is not that much larger than the M10x with Grip and EVF attached

-I believe the color cast issue presented by thephobloger.com was using a preproduction camera. Not seen much on the same since customers started to receive their production copies of the M10-R. 

[Jeff S]

What happened to #5?

Jeff

[Tom1234]

10 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

What happened to #5?

Jeff

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!  Miss-numbered. 

All answers are greatly appreciated.  Before a big purchase - a person really wants to know - the facts jack! 

[martinot]

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20 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

In the opinion of you M10 and M10-P owners, is the following description below, of the M10 and M10-P a fair opinion of the M10's abilities?  To put it another way:  Do I understand the M10's and M10-P's position among cameras as a mount for my Leica-M lenses?  I assume that the M10 and M10-P have the same sensor and electronics and software.

I have no local camera store carrying Leica within 3 hours drive since they have gone out of business. So I must use internet reports for my next camera purchase.  The below M10 factors are what I have gathered off the internet.

2- The M10 m10-P 24meg has the best color balance of all digital M's except maybe the M9?

6- The Nikon Z6 has similar color, and color more saturated than Sony and Canon, making the Nikon's color science similar to the M10's.  This makes the camera, for a number of users, well suited to Leica lenses.  But the Z6's complex menu's and general handling features for Leica M lenses are not as good as an m10's or SL's or SL2's handling features for the Leica M lenses?

I prefer the colour balance of the M240/262 generation Leicas (even if I prefer the higher DR and ISO of M10). They have the most natural colour balance of the Leica M cameras (with the M9 being most saturated, and M10 half saturated). But as I photo mostly in RAW, I do not think it is any big issue to be concerned with. I just set the colour balance post in Lr or C1.

The Nikon cameras are really great, but the sensor package is not optimized for the steep light rays from M-lenses. Even if it perhaps (have not compared) would not be quite as bad as on Sony cameras (notorious for their bad corner rendering with adapted M-lenses), I would still not recommend that solution for most users and most situations.

Generally M-lenses are best used and optimized to be combined with M-cameras sensor stacks.

In addition I often (but not always) usually prefer rangefinder focusing of manual M-lenses instead of manual focusing on mirrorless cameras (with edge contrast colour markings). But that might be a personal thing, so try it yourself and make up your own mind. Even if you have a long way to a Leica dealer, I would try it out before buying and investing in such an expensive thing like a modern camera system.

Edited October 13, 2020 by martinot

[Jeff S]

You’re in the US, so an option is to rent some gear and test for yourself. One person’s ‘best’ is another’s meh. For ‘truer’ color on any camera, make your own color profile.  The SL2 isn’t much bigger than an M; the lenses, though, are substantially different in size. I prefer native lenses on any camera and choose my system in part based on the specific lenses I need and the available choices.

Jeff

[Tom1234]

Many thanks for the answers.  Great suggestions and knowledge.  I must ponder!

[Tom1234]

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

You’re in the US, so an option is to rent some gear and test for yourself. One person’s ‘best’ is another’s meh. For ‘truer’ color on any camera, make your own color profile.  The SL2 isn’t much bigger than an M; the lenses, though, are substantially different in size. I prefer native lenses on any camera and choose my system in part based on the specific lenses I need and the available choices.

Jeff

How about the M lens on SL, seems that that would be light weight?  I will only be using M lenses and a Nikon or two.  

Yet some users using SL & Leica-M lenses still prefer M10 as significantly lighter & easier to use.  I think there is like .4 lb difference - see illustration.  Leica did a great job of making both cameras small as could be it seems. It seems to me they are so close that it may not matter.  Probably there is no answer to this except "personal preference".  

Of course SL looses rangfiner focusing option which might irritate.  But SL EVF beats M10 Viso EVF most say and the SL EVF does not fall off.

 

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[Tom1234]

 

20 minutes ago, martinot said:

I prefer the colour balance of the M240/262 generation Leicas (even if I prefer the higher DR and ISO of M10). They have the most natural colour balance of the Leica M cameras (with the M9 being most saturated, and M10 half saturated). But as I photo mostly in RAW, I do not think it is any big issue to be concerned with. I just set the colour balance post in Lr or C1.

I had not read the "truer" color comment on the M240/262 but it makes sense because the more saturated Euro look of the M10, which I like, I must admit is not really "true" color.

[Tom1234]

32 minutes ago, martinot said:

The Nikon cameras are really great, but the sensor package is not optimized for the steep light rays from M-lenses. Even if it perhaps (have not compared) would not be quite as bad as on Sony cameras (notorious for their bad corner rendering with adapted M-lenses), I would still not recommend that solution for most users and most situations.

Generally M-lenses are best used and optimized to be combined with M-cameras sensor stacks.

In addition I often (but not always) usually prefer rangefinder focusing of manual M-lenses instead of manual focusing on mirrorless cameras (with edge contrast colour markings). But that might be a personal things, so try it yourself and make up your own mind.

Maybe the SL is superior FOR ANY rangefinder lens made by any maker when using a mirrorless camera since I am thinking the SL is designed to  handle the more angular rays from film lenses in a way that other cameras don't.  The Nikon works well enough that people like it but maybe not as good as SL.  Guess I will have to go out and look on Nikon forums for their rangefinder lens experiences.  

I dislike loosing rangefinder focusing option on the SL.  The M with Viso option has all things… except Video which would make the camera piggy.  I probably need two bodies, one for video, and one for stills. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Tom1234
clarity fix & added "as a mirrorless"

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

How about the M lens on SL, seems that that would be light weight?  I will only be using M lenses and a Nikon or two.  

Yet some users using SL & Leica-M lenses still prefer M10 as significantly lighter & easier to use.  I think there is like .4 lb difference - see illustration.  Leica did a great job of making both cameras small as could be it seems. It seems to me they are so close that it may not matter.  Probably there is no answer to this except "personal preference".  

Of course SL looses rangfiner focusing option which might irritate.  But SL EVF beats M10 Viso EVF most say and the SL EVF does not fall off.

 

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As I wrote, I prefer using native lenses....M lenses on my M bodies and SL lenses on my SL2.  Different tools and experiences for different needs and features, including weather sealing, focusing/controls, focal lengths and zooms vs primes, etc.  I use an M as RF only with 28/35/50.  Don’t need or want an EVF acccessory.

Jeff

 

[adan]

3- On the connection of the (possible) M10-R color weakness in dim light, compared to human vision. There really is no such connection between silicon eyes and biological eyes.

Human vision uses two different types of cells to see "color" and "in dim light" - cones and rods. The cones can detect color, but poop out in dim light. The rods can't detect color, but can detect much lower light.

https://www.cis.rit.edu/people/faculty/montag/vandplite/pages/chap_9/ch9p1.html

Silicon vision really doesn't have such a division of functions, except by buying two cameras (a Monochrom and a regular color M10).

I would guess (not having worked yet with M10-R files) that this is either or both: somewhat different processing of the image data in the camera, or by the default settings in software later, and by a photographer's (erroneous) expectation that what worked for an earlier camera still applies to every new camera. The fact that the Phoblographer got different results using C1 and then LR shows exactly why different algorithms and picture handling make a significant difference.

Otherwise:

1 & 6 - Leica cameras as a group all do better with Leica M rangefinder lenses than non-Leica cameras. M lenses have "special needs" due to being compact and close to the sensor, yet designed according to film-era principles. On the whole, all Leica M digitals handle Leica M lenses well. The M10 ( but possibly the M240 series) sensors seem to do slightly better with uncoded wide-angles than the M9 - a new shape to the microlenses over each pixel.

2 - "best color balance" is subjective - everyone will have a different idea or what is best. And again, color balance is much more dependent on how good the photographer is at working with the pictures (and "work" is the operative verb - great photographs of any kind only come to those who bust their butts to make them great, one way or another). "Making great photographs" and "relaxing" are mutually-exclusive concepts.

4 - mixed. Some people find a heavy camera, with more inertia, easier to hand-hold steadily. It is harder to shake a bank vault than a feather - right?

OTOH, muscles may tire sooner and develop tremors and weakness holding a heavy camera for a long time.

But since the question of the SL vs. the M comes up - I find the split-image focusing of the Ms much faster than staring at an EVF screen trying to figure out what is sharp, what is sharper and what is sharpest. Slap two overlapping images into alignment in 0.5 second and grab the moment.

[jplomley]

27 minutes ago, adan said:

Slap two overlapping images into alignment in 0.5 second and grab the moment.

Brilliant!

[Tom1234]

56 minutes ago, adan said:

3- On the connection of the (possible) M10-R color weakness in dim light, compared to human vision. There really is no such connection between silicon eyes and biological eyes.

Human vision uses two different types of cells to see "color" and "in dim light" - cones and rods. The cones can detect color, but poop out in dim light. The rods can't detect color, but can detect much lower light.

https://www.cis.rit.edu/people/faculty/montag/vandplite/pages/chap_9/ch9p1.html

Silicon vision really doesn't have such a division of functions, except by buying two cameras (a Monochrom and a regular color M10).

I would guess (not having worked yet with M10-R files) that this is either or both: somewhat different processing of the image data in the camera, or by the default settings in software later, and by a photographer's (erroneous) expectation that what worked for an earlier camera still applies to every new camera. The fact that the Phoblographer got different results using C1 and then LR shows exactly why different algorithms and picture handling make a significant difference.

Otherwise:

1 & 6 - Leica cameras as a group all do better with Leica M rangefinder lenses than non-Leica cameras. M lenses have "special needs" due to being compact and close to the sensor, yet designed according to film-era principles. On the whole, all Leica M digitals handle Leica M lenses well. The M10 ( but possibly the M240 series) sensors seem to do slightly better with uncoded wide-angles than the M9 - a new shape to the microlenses over each pixel.

2 - "best color balance" is subjective - everyone will have a different idea or what is best. And again, color balance is much more dependent on how good the photographer is at working with the pictures (and "work" is the operative verb - great photographs of any kind only come to those who bust their butts to make them great, one way or another). "Making great photographs" and "relaxing" are mutually-exclusive concepts.

4 - mixed. Some people find a heavy camera, with more inertia, easier to hand-hold steadily. It is harder to shake a bank vault than a feather - right?

OTOH, muscles may tire sooner and develop tremors and weakness holding a heavy camera for a long time.

But since the question of the SL vs. the M comes up - I find the split-image focusing of the Ms much faster than staring at an EVF screen trying to figure out what is sharp, what is sharper and what is sharpest. Slap two overlapping images into alignment in 0.5 second and grab the moment.

Well all I can say is yes… I can directly relate to all your comments above and agree whole heartedly.  

My "heavy"  Nikon EL2 was easier to hand hold motionless until my arm got tired.  I got a monopod for my M7 with the 75mm 1.4 since the combo is piggy for sure and wears me out.

FOCUS SYSTEMS: I used to use the QUADRUPLE focus method in the Film SLR Nikon EL2's focusing screen and given the choice I almost always used the rangefinder type spilt line.  

The Nikon had FOUR ways to focus: 1- Surrounding small grain ground glass - I never used.  2- Medium grain cylinder of focus near the center - Never used, 3- Large grain cylinder - occasionally used, and 4- Split-Screen rangefinder like focus in the center circle - used almost every time since it was absolutely accurate. 

LEICA'S rectangular patch rangefinder area verses Nikon's split line? - they both work fine.

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[Tom1234]

8 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

LEICA'S rectangular patch rangefinder area verses Nikon's split line? - they both work fine.

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The difference between Leica-M and Nikon EL2 film camera focusing?  

Leica is GESTALT (artsy).

Nikon is SINGULAR (technical).

[adan]

Yes, the general disappearance of split-image screens from SLRs once AF took over was a primary force in driving me to pay Leica-M prices for my cameras - only option left.

Lens quality, lens size, all-up weight, and most other differences (if real) were just icing on the cake.

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[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, adan said:

Yes, the general disappearance of split-image screens from SLRs once AF took over was a primary force in driving me to pay Leica-M prices for my cameras - only option left.

Lens quality, lens size, all-up weight, and most other differences (if real) were just icing on the cake.

There’s also a split image screen option for the S system.  Beautiful optical VF.  But of course many other trade offs.

Jeff

[mike3996]

On 10/12/2020 at 7:59 PM, Tom1234 said:

If you disagree with #3 see the below post that very clearly illustrates this phenomena, Copy & search for these words inside the parenthesis:  "Above ISO 1600, forget about color" it is on page 30.

 

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/07/16/the-true-successor-to-the-leica-m9-leica-m10r-review/

Jeez what a bad review. He points the camera directly at the sun and then wonders why the highlights can't be recovered, says the claims about highlight recoverability are overshot.

And complains about a 3rd party software not supporting the new camera, hello?