Voigtlander 21mm | Nokton 1.4 or Color-Skopar 3.5?

[Dennis]

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Hi all!

I'm planning to get a new 21mm next month. My ideal FL would be a 24mm, but there is not an option with my $1k budget. So I'm getting (happily) a further 21mm. Now, I know huge differences between the two, mostly for size, weight, and speed. I heard great things about the ZM 25, but I don't want to get another Zeiss for now, except for the incredible IQ and performance, I don't like very much Zeiss lenses.
I love the idea of a small and light $700 21mm lens, like a pancake. With wide angles (21-24-28), I really like to shoot at f/5.6-8, I never had a fast wide lens, so I never use it less than 2.8 with these FL. 
But I also like the fact that 1.4 gives about 3 extra stops. What for? Environment portraits with shallow DOP, milky way, indoor low light, etc. It's certainly an advantage, but it comes with enormous size and weight. It's not a lens that you carry all day long, so I'm not afraid about weight and size. I can live with that. I would get of course an external VF. And, by the way, I really love the Nokton lens hood shape 🙂 Beautiful.

My question for you guys, if you can share your feedback, it's how both lenses perform in the f/4-f/8 range. This is what I would love to know. The price difference is not so big, so I'could🤷‍♂️ get the Nokton. But if at these apertures performs a little bit worst than Color-Skopar, I don't care to lose three stops, if I have better quality. I like the modern look and sharp images.
A minimal background: I own an M10 + 2.8/35 ZM and a 50mm Cron V. I don't have a budget now to get another Leica, so I would love to try out a Voigtlander; it would be my first.
Thank you in advance for your opinions.

 

 

[jaeger]

Check out Flickr groups that associate to these lenses.  It is the window shopping I usually would do.  That you can avoid personal preference, bias or worst influencers (nothing they say is true), when you see the exact image you want to create, that's your lens. 

[Product Details]

Complete Overview 21mm Leica M-Mount Lenses

21 mm F1.4 Nokton (Amazon | B&H) - 21 mm F1.8 Ultron (B&H) - 21 mm F3.5 Color Skopar (Amazon | B&H) - 21 mm F4.0 Color Skopar P-Typ (Amazon | B&H)

[Dennis]

I'm not familiar with Flickr, but I saw a few times links of groups shared here. Good idea, I'll take a look. I would like to know if one is substantially better than the other, of both equally top class.
My idea with Leica is never to sell, and step by step, year after year, add some gear ... But never sell. So if I get one, maybe in the future, I'll try the other as well. But which one is the perfect candidate to start? 
I can feel that with the Color-Skopar, I would use 5.6 all the time, except f/8 when needed. With a 21mm, I don't need f/11 at all. It's enough, DOP. So, a minimalist approach. One thing to think less.
On the other side, I feel that the Nokton could be more versatile and useful in more situations. 

[Archiver]

How often would you use the 21 for low light/milky way type photography? While I'm all for small and light lenses, there are times when I'm okay to carry the M9 and Voigtlander 35mm f1.2 because I like the way it renders, and it has great light gathering power. Having a wide aperture lens opens up a lot of possibilities that you lose with a slower lens, giving you more flexibility in shooting. At the same time, I prefer smaller lenses. If your plan is to slowly build a flexible lens collection, Voigtlander will absolutely give you the goods, especially with their more recent designs.

I'm only speaking generally as I don't have direct experience with either of those lenses. For my use, I'd get the f3.5 Color Skopar, as I'd be more willing to carry it along with the 50 Cron than a larger lens. If I use a bigger lens, I lean towards leaving the other lenses at home or buried in the bag.

[Marac]

I have the Voigtlander 21mm f1.8 it is a big lump but not too bad. The IQ is excellent even at f1.8, by 5.6-8 it is at it's best.

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Dennis said:

Hi all!

I'm planning to get a new 21mm next month. My ideal FL would be a 24mm, but there is not an option with my $1k budget. So I'm getting (happily) a further 21mm. Now, I know huge differences between the two, mostly for size, weight, and speed. I heard great things about the ZM 25, but I don't want to get another Zeiss for now, except for the incredible IQ and performance, I don't like very much Zeiss lenses.
I love the idea of a small and light $700 21mm lens, like a pancake. With wide angles (21-24-28), I really like to shoot at f/5.6-8, I never had a fast wide lens, so I never use it less than 2.8 with these FL. 
But I also like the fact that 1.4 gives about 3 extra stops. What for? Environment portraits with shallow DOP, milky way, indoor low light, etc. It's certainly an advantage, but it comes with enormous size and weight. It's not a lens that you carry all day long, so I'm not afraid about weight and size. I can live with that. I would get of course an external VF. And, by the way, I really love the Nokton lens hood shape 🙂 Beautiful.

My question for you guys, if you can share your feedback, it's how both lenses perform in the f/4-f/8 range. This is what I would love to know. The price difference is not so big, so I'could🤷‍♂️ get the Nokton. But if at these apertures performs a little bit worst than Color-Skopar, I don't care to lose three stops, if I have better quality. I like the modern look and sharp images.
A minimal background: I own an M10 + 2.8/35 ZM and a 50mm Cron V. I don't have a budget now to get another Leica, so I would love to try out a Voigtlander; it would be my first.
Thank you in advance for your opinions.

 

 

Hello Dennis....well, ( and we know how it happens ), I have two of the three of the lenses you are considering plus the Leica 21mm SEM and here's my two pennies worth on the choice. Both Voigtlanders are excellent, especially so at the f stop range you mention the only thing between them is their relative sizes....the VC 1.8 is a bit of a lump on the camera but it's speed might be useful to you at times. I love the 21mm Color Skopar, it's perfect for me in how I think M camera handling should be, in general I don't like larger / faster lenses and their balance on the M's and I've never "clicked" with the Zeiss options. Here's a suggestion though, why not also consider getting the Voigtlander Color Skopar 25mm as well as the 21mm. I own this lens as well and the 25mm is again truly excellent plus the budget for the two of them used could well be near to the new cost of the VC 21mm f1.4. Just a thought.

I find the 21mm Color Skopar to be very close in resolution and characteristics to the Leica SEM, as close as makes little or no real difference in B&W anyway, same goes for the 25mm VC versus the 24mm Leica 3.8 Elmar, in colour there's more fringing with the Skopars vs the Leicas, but personally I don't really care about that because if I'm looking that close to a photograph then I am missing the point of the image anyway. Handling on both of the Skopars is good........and yes I also own the Leica 24mm 3.8 too so I've been able to compare the lenses easily, the main plus though is the VC's size, I love that with M shooting.

Hope this helps rather than confuses the issue!......

Edited October 10, 2020 by petermullett
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[Dennis]

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6 hours ago, Archiver said:

How often would you use the 21 for low light/milky way type photography? While I'm all for small and light lenses, there are times when I'm okay to carry the M9 and Voigtlander 35mm f1.2 because I like the way it renders, and it has great light gathering power.

I don't know how often, but sure I would take advantage of the lens speed. And now that you mentioned, I share with you that among with a 21, I'll get a 35 1.2 too. Two lenses in one purchase. The 35mm was already in the radar, and with this thread I made a decision: 

Now I want to add the 21, and I'm just wondering which one.

6 hours ago, Marac said:

The IQ is excellent even at f1.8,

Can you compare it with the Nokton 1.4?

5 hours ago, petermullett said:

Both Voigtlanders are excellent, especially so at the f stop range you mention the only thing between them is their relative sizes

Good to know.

5 hours ago, petermullett said:

I love the 21mm Color Skopar, it's perfect for me in how I think M camera handling should be, in general I don't like larger / faster lenses and their balance on the M's and I've never "clicked" with the Zeiss options.

I never tried a big lenses on M, I need to see on person and feel it. But as I'm, as I shoot and with my big hands I could prefer a bigger lens. For me, the Zeiss 2.8/35 ZM is so small. Light of course, superb IQ, but are the only things I like about it.

5 hours ago, petermullett said:

why not also consider getting the Voigtlander Color Skopar 25mm

Never heard about it. I'll check, thank you!

 

[sinjun]

I would say that 21mm is pretty different from 25mm - the latter being long enough that you don't generally have to worry about some of the odd perspective issues associated with WA lenses, e.g. the edge stretching necessary to keep things rectilinear. I'd second Petermullet's suggestion of the CV 25mm which I find to be compact, sharp and contrasty. I have the non rangefinder coupled 25mm snapshot Skopar which has slight clicks on the focus mechanism at 0.7m, 1 m, 1.5 m, 3m so you can estimate where you are on the focus scale without taking your eye away form the viewfinder. Given the large depth of field this fine for most subjects, though can be a little hit and miss at f4 and closer than around 1.2m.

[Dennis]

20 minutes ago, sinjun said:

I would say that 21mm is pretty different from 25mm

Totally agree. I actually always found bit better the 24mm (on Dslr). I have also a 20mm which I sue often, and when I really need it. But considering the price of the Color Skopar for example, for $700 brand new lens, it's a bargain. Honestly I don't like the 25 Zeiss, and I don't know the CV 25, which I'm already trying to find used. No idea about price and where to buy. My purchase will be at the Leica store SF and surroundings area

[astrostl]

The FE versions of both these lenses are both reviewed at PR: FE 21/1.4, FE 21/3.5. With the same manufacturer and series, I would expect the optical performance on the M versions to be comparable even if these ones are on a different mount and have different features (e.g. bodies and focus distance).

[Guest]

There is a huge thread on the 21 f1.4 on the fred miranda sony forum with lots of images.

Told its the same optical design as the VM version,in fact i think the massive sales potential of the sony market has driven voigtlander into making some great fast lenses.

Looks like a fantastic lens.

[Dennis]

4 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

There is a huge thread on the 21 f1.4 on the fred miranda sony forum with lots of images.

I'll check it, thank you. But I have a question. If the Sony version is wow, should Leica as well be wow? Or there are some cases where the same lens for different brands performs different 

4 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

Looks like a fantastic lens.

That's what I'm afraid of 😂

Edited October 10, 2020 by Dennis

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I'll check it, thank you. But I have a question. If the Sony version is wow, should Leica as well be wow? Or there are some cases where the same lens for different brands performs different 

That's what I'm afraid of 😂

I think its exactly the same lens so i do not see why not?

I have the zeiss 25mm f2.8 but sometimes run out of light and also would like to try something wider so i have looked at this lens myself.

[Archiver]

Regarding the CV 25mm f4 P - it's a great little lens on film, but not quite up to standard on a digital body, depending on what you want to shoot. There's red edge that in-camera profiles doesn't entirely erase, and it's a lower contrast and detail lens on the M9. Having said that, I shoot it on my M9 every now and then as I enjoy the size and focal length. With Lightroom, you can set up a gradient filter that gets rid of the rest of the red edge; it's easy to make a quick profile to adjust the CV25 images.

Voigtlander 25mm f4 P Skopar on Zeiss Ikon:

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Voigtlander25mm - test shot two by Archiver, on Flickr

Voigtlander25mm - test shot by Archiver, on Flickr

CV 25/4P - Golden by Archiver, on Flickr

[tgray]

I know it’s for a different mount (though I think the formulas are the same/similar), but both lenses reviewed very well on Sony.  Quite a lot of people sold their Zeiss Loxia 21/2.8 for the Voigtlander 21/1.4. I have the Zeiss and it’s stunning. Some very discerning people felt the Voigtlander was as good or better at similar apertures. Then the 21/3.5 came out and by all accounts it was even better at equivalent apertures. 

I think the general consensus was that these are great lenses on Sony in native mount, and the M mount versions were just a hair worse on Sony.  If you are shooting predominately Leica, the M mount version will have better performance on M than it will on Sony.

There are some long threads on Fredmiranda.com on most of these lenses (Sony and VM mount) on Sony cameras.  There’s also a shorter thread comparing some of these lenses in M mount on both Sony and Leica cameras.  The 21/3.5 is one of the lenses tested  

 

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1647789/1?b=2

.  

 

[tgray]

Also, the 21/1.4 is tested on page 5 of that thread on both Leica and Sony.  The summary was the VM version on Leica tested as well as the Sony version on Sony. 

[sinjun]

9 hours ago, Archiver said:

There's red edge that in-camera profiles doesn't entirely erase

I find the 21mm f2.8 in-camera profile on the M9 neutralises colour cast pretty well.

[Dennis]

3 hours ago, tgray said:

 If you are shooting predominately Leica, the M mount version will have better performance on M than it will on Sony.

No Sony. It would be a VM lens for Leica M10, that's it.

3 hours ago, tgray said:

Quite a lot of people sold their Zeiss Loxia 21/2.8 for the Voigtlander 21/1.4. I have the Zeiss and it’s stunning. Some very discerning people felt the Voigtlander was as good or better at similar apertures. Then the 21/3.5 came out and by all accounts it was even better at equivalent apertures. 

Good to know. I know that both lenses are amazing. But I'm afraid that the Color Skopar could be a little better at equivalent apertures. Smaller, cheaper, lighter ...

I really need to test both on hands and make a final decision, I have different reasons to get both, but I only will buy one.

 

[Guest]

The 21 f1.4 voigtlander is a big and heavy lens ,longer and quite a bit heavier than my 35mm zeiss f1.4 distagon,understandably i suppose.

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[Dennis]

17 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

The 21 f1.4 voigtlander is a big and heavy lens ,longer and quite a bit heavier than my 35mm zeiss f1.4 distagon, understandably i suppose.

Yes, it's huge. Too much big? Need to check in person. I don't care about VF blockage