Tempted by the TL2 - should I be?

[LocalHero1953]

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36 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Why not use the holster?

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-CL-TL2/Accessories/Leather-holster

I looked at that, but it is then no longer a camera that you just grab and tuck away when you go out. It might have worked if it had just been a belt-mount holster.

I don't need a holster for my phone. I'll get one when I need a colostomy bag.

[FrozenInTime]

13 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Whether or not the TL2 has reached the end of the line as a series, a single TL2 will last until it breaks, and should give you a (camera) lifetime of fun.

As for pocketable cameras, I found the TL2+18 readily pocketable in terms of size, but its weight required a tough pocket and a strong belt, so I agree it is not ideal. I explained in an early post why the Ricoh did not work for me, but I still wanted a camera I always had with me. So I bought another Leica; it just happens to be part of my Huawei P10 phone, and does exactly what I want, with an intuitive and sophisticated UI.

Spot the reality gap:

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  I took these at the Huawei P10 launch at MWC Barcelona.

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[HuntingSand]

On 9/26/2020 at 7:10 PM, nicci78 said:

Somehow T TL TL2 colour science is awesome. They are the best out of camera JPG & DNG of all Leica cameras. Please note that their DNG is already precooked. 
So if you do not like to do post processing. They are the best.

I am glad to hear from an authoritative source on color science that my little TL2 has the best JPGs AND DNGs of all Leica cameras. So, my Leica S system has a question for my TL2: if your files are already "precooked", how can you be the "best"? And what is "best" anyway...?

What hogwash...you should be made to stand in the corner of your 4th grade science classroom for an hour for comments like this. 

[nicci78]

I repeat myself : If you do not want to do post processing. They are the best. 
Otherwise you are screwed, because they are already precooked. 
 

TL2 and CL cater two very different categories of users. 
 

Edited September 27, 2020 by nicci78

[Reggie]

51 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I repeat myself : If you do not want to do post processing. They are the best. 
Otherwise you are screwed, because they are already precooked. 
 

TL2 and CL cater two very different categories of users. 
 

Nicci, can you direct me to the evidence for the ‘pre cooking’ of the DNG files. I’ve tried a google search and nothing obvious is coming up. I’m still very new to digital but I was under the impression that the whole point of RAW or DNG is that it is a record of unaltered data from the sensor so altering it seems to defeat the whole point of it. 

[nicci78]

https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm
Every RAW are more or less pre cooked. One way or another. Here TL2 applied strong noise reduction in DNG, after ISO 400.

Which is a very very low value to do such thing.  Combined with a tweaked black point. TL2 manage to got such excellent dynamic range value. Beating most Leica camera’s DNG ! 
But in reality, a well post processing CL file will match it. TL2 is made for effortless results. 

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[nicci78]

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Just for fun @HuntingSand this is how with precooked DNG, can equal the Leica S3. 🤣

Of course with good processing techniques, the S3 will crush the TL2. But out of camera TL2 JPG and DNG are quite awesome. 
 

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[jaapv]

12 hours ago, Reggie said:

Nicci, can you direct me to the evidence for the ‘pre cooking’ of the DNG files. I’ve tried a google search and nothing obvious is coming up. I’m still very new to digital but I was under the impression that the whole point of RAW or DNG is that it is a record of unaltered data from the sensor so altering it seems to defeat the whole point of it. 

No raw file, from any manufacturer, is unaltered data. The sensor output goes through many processing stages before the raw file is written. The camera output is lossless. The jpg files are even more processed, but the main point is that strong lossy compression is applied, losing data but making them suitable for quick output without reverting to postprocessing programs.
 

[Reggie]

A big thanks to everyone who has helped by contributing to this thread. 
 

I have just placed an order for the TL2. 
 

With all your help, I have come to the following conclusion;

No matter how much better the CL might be than the TL2, the form factor simply does not sit well in my hand and the EVF doesn’t work for me.

So by choosing the TL2, I’m missing out on a faster AF but what do I gain?

A more comfortable camera to hold.

A more compact design.

In body charging and memory.

Zero angst about buying a TL2 knowing that the TL3 might be around the corner (it won’t!) 😆 - that would have been a killer if I’d gone for the CL.

And at the current price difference between the TL2 and CL kits, an extra €815 towards the next lens.

 

I’m really looking forward to dipping my toe into Leica water and hopefully I can contribute something worthy to the pics thread in due course.

thanks again,

Reggie

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Reggie

[jaapv]

Just now, Reggie said:

A big thanks to everyone who has helped by contributing to this thread. 
 

I have just placed the order for the TL2. 
 

With all your help, I have come to the following conclusion;

No matter how much better the CL might be than the TL2, the form factor simply does not sit well in my hand and the EVF doesn’t work for me.

So by choosing the TL2, I’m missing out on a faster AF but what do I gain?

A more comfortable camera to hold.

A more compact design.

In body charging and memory.

Zero angst about buying a TL2 knowing that the TL3 might be around the corner (it won’t!) 😆 - that would have been a killer if I’d gone for the CL.

And at the current price difference between the TL2 and CL kits, an extra €815 towards the next lens.

 

I’m really looking forward to dipping my toe into Leica water and hopefully I can contribute something worthy to the pics thread in due course.

thanks again,

Reggie

 

Good reasoning and enjoy your new camera!

[HuntingSand]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Reggie:

A big thanks to everyone who has helped by contributing to this thread. 
 

I have just placed an order for the TL2. 
 

With all your help, I have come to the following conclusion;

No matter how much better the CL might be than the TL2, the form factor simply does not sit well in my hand and the EVF doesn’t work for me.

So by choosing the TL2, I’m missing out on a faster AF but what do I gain?

A more comfortable camera to hold.

A more compact design.

In body charging and memory.

Zero angst about buying a TL2 knowing that the TL3 might be around the corner (it won’t!) 😆 - that would have been a killer if I’d gone for the CL.

And at the current price difference between the TL2 and CL kits, an extra €815 towards the next lens.

 

Congratulations, I hope you will enjoy the TL2. Beware of the in-camera cooking and stewing of files! 😃 Actually, colors are very pleasing and can be quite punchy, on occasion you may wish to dial things back a bit. Let us know if you have questions about DNG processing, this community is good at sharing experience and expertise.
Btw., if you live in the US, you could rent a couple of lenses (lensrentals.com comes to mind, or others) and see what focal lengths suit your purpose(s) best.

[Reggie]

3 hours ago, HuntingSand said:

Congratulations, I hope you will enjoy the TL2. Beware of the in-camera cooking and stewing of files! 😃 Actually, colors are very pleasing and can be quite punchy, on occasion you may wish to dial things back a bit. Let us know if you have questions about DNG processing, this community is good at sharing experience and expertise.
Btw., if you live in the US, you could rent a couple of lenses (lensrentals.com comes to mind, or others) and see what focal lengths suit your purpose(s) best.

Thanks HuntingSand, I really appreciate your offer of support on DNG processing as I have never done any digital post processing. I'm not in the US so lens rental is out. I'm thinking that the 55-135mm zoom would be nice and maybe the Sigma 30mm and 56mm primes or the Leica 35mm and 60mm primes. I'm watching the Sigma DC DN thread closely 😁.

[jaapv]

Quality-wise the Leica lenses are superior-at a price. As for postprocessing expertise you will find plenty here. Just post your images with a request for critique.  - and be prepared to take the rough with the smooth.   

[Don Morley]

On 9/24/2020 at 12:49 PM, Reggie said:

Hoping to get some advice and insight from the forum...

I started in photography 30 years ago with 35mm SLRs (Pentax P30 and EOS100). I took my best photos on the Pentax with its 50mm prime. The kit zoom on the EOS was rubbish despite the focusing convenience. I pretty much always shot in aperture priority. 
 

I began to realise that the bulk of the EOS kit meant that I was missing photo opportunities by dint of not having the camera when I needed it. I bought a small digital Fuji compact zoom in the nougties as the screen negated the need for the TTL view of the SLR. 
 

I resisted using phone cameras until a few years ago but have succumbed to their convenience. However, I’ve become unhappy with the wide angles, distortion and image quality. 
 

So I’ve been on the hunt for a simple, small, pocketable camera and read up on all the advancements in technology. I considered the Sony RX100 series but the sensor seems to be a bit small. The TL2 with the 18mm lens is not much deeper than the RX100 M7 but the Sony has a zoom vs the wide angle prime of the TL2. 

My intention is to be able to keep the camera on me while on holiday/evenings out and use it in situations where I would previously have pulled out the phone. I would also like the flexibility to put longer lenses on for portraiture and specific assignments / projects - probably ending up with 18mm, 35mm and 55-135mm or maybe the Sigma 30mm  and 56mm lenses.

I’ve been through all the forum posts about CL vs TL2 and I note that the CL is more popular for a number of reasons, most notably the faster AF and the built in EVF.
 

I visited my local Leica store and handled both cameras with the 18-56 zoom. The CL was working but the TL was a non functioning body as the store had no TL2 stock and implied that it was being abandoned as a product. I have large hands and the TL felt much better in hand than the CL (I can see why so many add the thumb and hand grip - which negates the compact form factor). I also wear glasses and the EVF wasn’t that useable with my glasses on. The convenience of the back screen suited me better in store - however, I can imagine that it might be a different story outdoors. The TL2 is also slimmer than the CL and the battery can be charged in-body, negating the need to carry a dedicated charger when travelling. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to try the user interface as the body wasn’t working. 
 

I am aware that both the CL and TL2 are due an update and that I could be buying ‘obsolete’ technology, especially as Leica does not seem to be updating the TL2 firmware for new lenses.

However, everything has its price and the kit discounts make the TL2 look very attractive. 
 

TL2 + 18mm       €1,730

TL2 + 18-56mm  €2,360

In comparison, the CL prices I can get are as follows. 
 

CL + 18mm         €2,545

CL + 18-56mm   €3,010

 

The fly in the ointment is that I have fallen in love with the Panda look CL in silver but have concerns about pocketability and charging convenience. The better support by Leica for the CL has me leaning in this direction - even at the higher price. 
 

my question to you all is;

Have I thought about this the right way and are my observations valid or is there something I’ve missed? An in store look is not the same as living with the camera.

Should I get the TL2 knowing that it’s highly likely to be a dead end but is priced accordingly?

Or should I get the CL and work on accommodating the form factor (even though a CL2 seems to be around the corner)?

Thank you in advance. 
 

I have a CL and a TL2 they are quite different but each great in there own way, and I love working with the TL2 especially from the rear screen and no EVF or with the EVF tipped up to give me lower viewpoint angles. If I had to choose between these two cameras I would be very hard put as they each have different strengths. Don

On 9/24/2020 at 12:49 PM, Reggie said:

Hoping to get some advice and insight from the forum...

I started in photography 30 years ago with 35mm SLRs (Pentax P30 and EOS100). I took my best photos on the Pentax with its 50mm prime. The kit zoom on the EOS was rubbish despite the focusing convenience. I pretty much always shot in aperture priority. 
 

I began to realise that the bulk of the EOS kit meant that I was missing photo opportunities by dint of not having the camera when I needed it. I bought a small digital Fuji compact zoom in the nougties as the screen negated the need for the TTL view of the SLR. 
 

I resisted using phone cameras until a few years ago but have succumbed to their convenience. However, I’ve become unhappy with the wide angles, distortion and image quality. 
 

So I’ve been on the hunt for a simple, small, pocketable camera and read up on all the advancements in technology. I considered the Sony RX100 series but the sensor seems to be a bit small. The TL2 with the 18mm lens is not much deeper than the RX100 M7 but the Sony has a zoom vs the wide angle prime of the TL2. 

My intention is to be able to keep the camera on me while on holiday/evenings out and use it in situations where I would previously have pulled out the phone. I would also like the flexibility to put longer lenses on for portraiture and specific assignments / projects - probably ending up with 18mm, 35mm and 55-135mm or maybe the Sigma 30mm  and 56mm lenses.

I’ve been through all the forum posts about CL vs TL2 and I note that the CL is more popular for a number of reasons, most notably the faster AF and the built in EVF.
 

I visited my local Leica store and handled both cameras with the 18-56 zoom. The CL was working but the TL was a non functioning body as the store had no TL2 stock and implied that it was being abandoned as a product. I have large hands and the TL felt much better in hand than the CL (I can see why so many add the thumb and hand grip - which negates the compact form factor). I also wear glasses and the EVF wasn’t that useable with my glasses on. The convenience of the back screen suited me better in store - however, I can imagine that it might be a different story outdoors. The TL2 is also slimmer than the CL and the battery can be charged in-body, negating the need to carry a dedicated charger when travelling. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to try the user interface as the body wasn’t working. 
 

I am aware that both the CL and TL2 are due an update and that I could be buying ‘obsolete’ technology, especially as Leica does not seem to be updating the TL2 firmware for new lenses.

However, everything has its price and the kit discounts make the TL2 look very attractive. 
 

TL2 + 18mm       €1,730

TL2 + 18-56mm  €2,360

In comparison, the CL prices I can get are as follows. 
 

CL + 18mm         €2,545

CL + 18-56mm   €3,010

 

The fly in the ointment is that I have fallen in love with the Panda look CL in silver but have concerns about pocketability and charging convenience. The better support by Leica for the CL has me leaning in this direction - even at the higher price. 
 

my question to you all is;

Have I thought about this the right way and are my observations valid or is there something I’ve missed? An in store look is not the same as living with the camera.

Should I get the TL2 knowing that it’s highly likely to be a dead end but is priced accordingly?

Or should I get the CL and work on accommodating the form factor (even though a CL2 seems to be around the corner)?

Thank you in advance. 
 

I

 

[Reggie]

Thanks for sharing your experience Don. I’m really looking forward to receiving the TL2. It was shipped out today... 😃

[Reggie]

And here it is!

You all know what a TL2 looks like but I thought I’d post a photo of it with the B+W T-pro protection filter on to show the colour tone with silver as I couldn’t find any images on the web. The filter also has a lower profile than the lens cap which will be good from a pocketability standpoint. 

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Edited October 3, 2020 by Reggie

[ruskkyle]

Beautiful - you happy with it @Reggie?

[Reggie]

30 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

Beautiful - you happy with it @Reggie?

So far so good - I’m reading the manual while I wait for the battery to charge. 
I’ve also been thinking about wrist straps for the left hand side. One reason why the TL2 sits better in my (very large) hands is the lack of strap lugs to foul the grip of my right hand. Putting the neck strap on negates that benefit and makes the whole rig less pocketable. 

[TMM Photography]

Yes I just had the Leica T Original a few weeks ago... paired with a Leica L mount Adapter to Canon FD Mount lenses (I have about every single one in existence lol) Besides that the leica T just ISNT comparable.

Edited October 8, 2020 by TMM Photography

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Hallo,

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[g2van]

On 9/28/2020 at 1:06 PM, Reggie said:

I'm thinking that the 55-135mm zoom would be nice and maybe the Sigma 30mm and 56mm primes or the Leica 35mm and 60mm primes. I'm watching the Sigma DC DN thread closely 😁.

Just wanted to let you know that I have the 55-135 and the Sigma 30. Both are outstanding on the CL and my TL. The 55-135, like all the TL lenses, is just superb and size, weight, handling and image quality! Light enough to easily carry around in a small bag. The Sigma is really a no-brainer for me - priced so well, and becomes a good companion or alternative to the TL 23. Enjoy your TL2 !