Tempted by the TL2 - should I be?

[wizard]

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vor 19 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

... it is a learning curve and depending on your ambitions it can be steep. But it is worth it.

Jaap, if the learning curve is steep, then things are easy, as you are making progress quickly. It gets exhausting only when your learning curve is more or less flat. In the mountains, it is the opposite way round 😎.

[jaapv]

Steep= fast,but challenging to me   

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[FrozenInTime]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I was thinking jeans/trousers pocket of course. 

TL2 + 18mm real problems for pocket are :     
- depth TL2+ 18mm = 50mm,  CL+18mm = 56mm and GR III is only 33mm thick. 
- length TL2 = 135mm vs CL = 131mm vs GR III = 109mm.   
- height TL2 = 69mm vs CL = 79mm vs GR III = 62mm
- weight : TL2/CL +18mm = 480g which is really noticeable in any pocket. GR III 250g is way closer to iPhone 11 Pro Max 225g. So eminently more pocket friendly. 
 

 

I tried for 3 months to use T+18mm as pocket camera. But in the end it is way too heavy, too wide and too thick for that. But it is way better than CL for that task anyway. 

Size , weight  and single handed operation are where the GRIII really wins , but it's still for me a jacket pocket camera ; the TL2 is too heavy for that.

There are finally signs of the long desired 40mm GR variant in a recent patent. It would not hurt Leica to make a similar pancake lens for the L mount.

If I am using my TL2 as main camera, I take the 18TL and 28mm Summicron plus visoflex. 

[nicci78]

41 minutes ago, Reggie said:

The GR III is a useful benchmark but I still want the flexibility to go to longer focal lengths otherwise I might as well stick with the iPhone or get a Sony RX100. If the TL2+18mm doesn't really work any better as a jeans or jacket pocket camera than the CL then that's one  of its major benefits negated.

Actually T/TL/TL2 are way more pocketable than CL. They are still thinner (every millimetres count) 

And they do not have protruding parts. TL2 will be completely smooth (except the lens part) to enter and exit any big pocket with ease. 
However CL will have some parts that can get in the way. Like the EVF, the two dials, the lens sticking out more of the body, the strap connectors (which are not removable in CL case). 
 

So for big cargo pockets TL2 wins. 
 

But I repeat GR III is the right tool for any pocket. It is cheaper thanTL 18. So it is a no brainer to always have a camera at hand. TL2 or CL will not be as convenient. With the saving you can still buy TL2 or upgrade to CL for longer lens. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by nicci78

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

Size , weight  and single handed operation are where the GRIII really wins , but it's still for me a jacket pocket camera ; the TL2 is too heavy for that.

There are finally signs of the long desired 40mm GR variant in a recent patent. It would not hurt Leica to make a similar pancake lens for the L mount.

If I am using my TL2 as main camera, I take the 18TL and 28mm Summicron plus visoflex. 

The problem being here that I find that the iPhone 11 Pro gives results that are at least close to the GR III, especially in the dark (where it performs better)

[AK588]

To the OP -

I recently was in the same conundrum where I wanted something small to use instead of a phone. Originally I was intending to get the fuji x100v - (previously had x100f so knew it would be a good camera) but leica had a special bundle for the TL2 + 18mm for cheap - so I got that instead.

I also did it for reasons like in camera charging, the look/design of it is so sleek and nice to just hold. I don't mind lack of EVF as I had a bigger FF system for all that stuff. The TL2 would be my every day carry camera , and also the ability to change lenses. I've had fixed compact cameras before but after a while you miss shooting other focal lengths. My intention is to add the 35 summilux to my kit and leave it as that as a small 2 lens system and carry it in a bag.

I didn't look at the CL mainly because I didn't need an EVF, also I don't find the design that appealing, albeit never held it in the hand. People say its like a mini M10, but the M10 looks a lot more pleasing imo.

Some things to note on the use;

- Autofocus is slow, probably the slowest camera I've used. But the camera is a few years old and I was aware it wasn't fast so just be prepared for that. 

_ I started shooting it much slower and more deliberate , fully manual beacuse its easier than Auto ISO control. You can configure the 2 dials for SS/Aperture and the top button for ISO, then just wheel to change ISO.

-Image quality for the 18mm is nice, I forget its APSC size so you get nice images.

I havent shot enough however, since lockdown haven''t really gone out much..

[Reggie]

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32 minutes ago, AK588 said:

To the OP -

I recently was in the same conundrum where I wanted something small to use instead of a phone. Originally I was intending to get the fuji x100v - (previously had x100f so knew it would be a good camera) but leica had a special bundle for the TL2 + 18mm for cheap - so I got that instead.

I also did it for reasons like in camera charging, the look/design of it is so sleek and nice to just hold. I don't mind lack of EVF as I had a bigger FF system for all that stuff. The TL2 would be my every day carry camera , and also the ability to change lenses. I've had fixed compact cameras before but after a while you miss shooting other focal lengths. My intention is to add the 35 summilux to my kit and leave it as that as a small 2 lens system and carry it in a bag.

I didn't look at the CL mainly because I didn't need an EVF, also I don't find the design that appealing, albeit never held it in the hand. People say its like a mini M10, but the M10 looks a lot more pleasing imo.

Some things to note on the use;

- Autofocus is slow, probably the slowest camera I've used. But the camera is a few years old and I was aware it wasn't fast so just be prepared for that. 

_ I started shooting it much slower and more deliberate , fully manual beacuse its easier than Auto ISO control. You can configure the 2 dials for SS/Aperture and the top button for ISO, then just wheel to change ISO.

-Image quality for the 18mm is nice, I forget its APSC size so you get nice images.

I havent shot enough however, since lockdown haven''t really gone out much..

Thanks AK588, your experience is really helpful and mirrors what I'm trying to achieve - although I don't have the digital FF kit so the TL2 or CL would have to fulfil that role too, hence the desire to get the 55-135mm zoom and either the 35mm prime or the sigma 30mm and possibly 56mm primes.

I suspect that autofocus has come a long way since my EOS100 so anything slow by modern standards is likely to feel lighting fast compared to what I've been used to. I have to chuckle to myself when I see the angst on some forae caused by the lack of a focus joystick. Whatever happened to centre focus/expose with a half shutter press and recompose? Technology has made life too easy and at the same time, too complicated. I don't want a million menus,  modes and presets - I never even used all the modes available to me 30 years ago.

The whole concept of auto ISO is new to me as well -  yet another variable to control. And again, how spoilt have we become with cameras denigrated because they can't shoot ISO >6400. Jeez, you didn't go above 200 with film if you wanted decent image quality, even with small prints in mind.

Reading the German language part of the forum, I get an even stronger sense that the TL2 really is the end of the line for the T series and that it seems unlikely to be replaced - which is a shame. So the fact that the TL2 and CL are of a similar age creates the conundrum of choice. I suspect that the techincal superiority of the CL2, when it comes, will render this discussion moot.

[nicci78]

Of course it is the end of the line. 
No update for TL2 since octobre 2018 !

CL got another major firmware just one month ago. 
CL AF is faster than TL2 one. 
CL got firmware updates for full L-mount lenses compatibility, that TL2 nor T and TL never got. 
 

CL DNG is untouched. But TL2 is pre-cooked with noise reduction. 
 

So it is your choice. 

[nicci78]

Of course it is the end of the line. 
No update for TL2 since octobre 2018 !

CL got another major firmware just one month ago. 
CL AF is faster than TL2 one. 
CL got firmware updates for full L-mount lenses compatibility, that TL2 nor T and TL never got. 
 

CL DNG is untouched. But TL2 is pre-cooked with noise reduction. 
 

So it is your choice. 

[AK588]

No firmware update doesn't mean its the end of the line. The camera is still useable. The Sony RX1 series never had a firmware update ever, but they are still used by many.

I obviously wouldn't complain if Leica did a firmware update, but it is not the end of the world.

 

I have read the CL has faster AF, unsure how significant the difference is.

 

Also, centre point Af and recompose is what I use.

 

The camera has the ability to touch to change autofocus point, but it actually autofocuses as well for you instead of only moving the point and then you focus when pressing shutter button. That is quite annoying as every other camera does it properly. It means that changing AF point is slow since it focuses for you and the focus is slow. Centre focus and adjust is the quickest way.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by AK588
clarifying stuff

[nicci78]

Believe what you want.
Last time the whole X line stop receiving any firmware update after 2014.
Guess what ? They were the last for their kind. 

Same pattern for TL2. The whole T/TL/TL2 line up received their last update in 2018. Then radio silence. 
 

No firmware = no dedicated team behind for improvement, nor for new feature and almost certainly not for a newer model. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by nicci78

[Reggie]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Believe what you want.
Last time the whole X line stop receiving any firmware update after 2014.
Guess what ? They were the last for their kind. 

Same pattern for TL2. The whole T/TL/TL2 line up received their last update in 2018. Then radio silence. 
 

No firmware = no dedicated team behind for improvement, nor for new feature and almost certainly not for a newer model. 

I can live with buying the TL2 knowing that it’s the last of the T series as it seems to function well so there’s no need for further updates. What I’m more concerned about is whether there will be firmware updates for compatibility with any new lenses from Leica or from the other L mount partners. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Reggie
Spelling

[nicci78]

Sadly those are the missing firmwares.

L-mount lenses will work at the bare minimum. But any extra functionalities may or may not work. 
 

Last two years CL got the necessary firmwares to ensure full support of Panasonic and Sigma lenses. 
However it still missed a firmware update to allow us to use the extra AF-L button on Sigma and Panasonic lens. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by nicci78

[jaapv]

Leica has always updated their discontinued cameras for new lenses after production end, I don't see why they should stop now. Anyway, with the cross-brand L standard, the need for lens updates should diminish.

[nicci78]

I am experiencing more glitches with L-Mount Alliance than it should be. No problem at all when there were only TL and SL lenses. 
But now ? It is a mess : high power consumption. AF behaviour is not consistent (if cross brand : one body and one lens from two different manufacturers). All functionalities are not recognised (like AF-L button disabled on Leica bodies). No way to fine tune manual focusing ring. Etc... 

So L-mount is not yet the paradise. And I suspect that way more body and lens firmware updates will be needed to reach perfection.

Edited September 26, 2020 by nicci78

[nicci78]

Of course all hope is not lost for TL2. 
 

Somehow T TL TL2 colour science is awesome. They are the best out of camera JPG & DNG of all Leica cameras. Please not that their DNG is already precooked. 
So if you do not like to do post processing. They are the best.

Other Leica like the CL, Q, Q2, SL, SL2, etc... will have average JPG and their DNG require some post processing. 
 

T’s pop up flash work great too. What a shame that Leica removes it from TL2. It was the best feature of the T. 
Sadly every Leica now requires external flash. But for weird reasons latest Leica flash do not work well at all. 

[Reggie]

9 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Of course all hope is not lost for TL2. 
 

Somehow T TL TL2 colour science is awesome. They are the best out of camera JPG & DNG of all Leica cameras. Please not that their DNG is already precooked. 
So if you do not like to do post processing. They are the best.

Glad to know that the T line still has some positives to recommend it!

[nicci78]

T and TL are better for macro works than CL. Especially with APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm
Because they got external tiltable EVF + pop up flash (very handy for macro) + digital distance and depth of field scale.

However TL2 without its pop up flash won’t be as good than its older siblings. 

[LocalHero1953]

Whether or not the TL2 has reached the end of the line as a series, a single TL2 will last until it breaks, and should give you a (camera) lifetime of fun.

As for pocketable cameras, I found the TL2+18 readily pocketable in terms of size, but its weight required a tough pocket and a strong belt, so I agree it is not ideal. I explained in an early post why the Ricoh did not work for me, but I still wanted a camera I always had with me. So I bought another Leica; it just happens to be part of my Huawei P10 phone, and does exactly what I want, with an intuitive and sophisticated UI.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

Why not use the holster?

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-CL-TL2/Accessories/Leather-holster