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Tempted by the TL2 - should I be?


Reggie

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Hoping to get some advice and insight from the forum...

I started in photography 30 years ago with 35mm SLRs (Pentax P30 and EOS100). I took my best photos on the Pentax with its 50mm prime. The kit zoom on the EOS was rubbish despite the focusing convenience. I pretty much always shot in aperture priority. 
 

I began to realise that the bulk of the EOS kit meant that I was missing photo opportunities by dint of not having the camera when I needed it. I bought a small digital Fuji compact zoom in the nougties as the screen negated the need for the TTL view of the SLR. 
 

I resisted using phone cameras until a few years ago but have succumbed to their convenience. However, I’ve become unhappy with the wide angles, distortion and image quality. 
 

So I’ve been on the hunt for a simple, small, pocketable camera and read up on all the advancements in technology. I considered the Sony RX100 series but the sensor seems to be a bit small. The TL2 with the 18mm lens is not much deeper than the RX100 M7 but the Sony has a zoom vs the wide angle prime of the TL2. 

My intention is to be able to keep the camera on me while on holiday/evenings out and use it in situations where I would previously have pulled out the phone. I would also like the flexibility to put longer lenses on for portraiture and specific assignments / projects - probably ending up with 18mm, 35mm and 55-135mm or maybe the Sigma 30mm  and 56mm lenses.

I’ve been through all the forum posts about CL vs TL2 and I note that the CL is more popular for a number of reasons, most notably the faster AF and the built in EVF.
 

I visited my local Leica store and handled both cameras with the 18-56 zoom. The CL was working but the TL was a non functioning body as the store had no TL2 stock and implied that it was being abandoned as a product. I have large hands and the TL felt much better in hand than the CL (I can see why so many add the thumb and hand grip - which negates the compact form factor). I also wear glasses and the EVF wasn’t that useable with my glasses on. The convenience of the back screen suited me better in store - however, I can imagine that it might be a different story outdoors. The TL2 is also slimmer than the CL and the battery can be charged in-body, negating the need to carry a dedicated charger when travelling. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to try the user interface as the body wasn’t working. 
 

I am aware that both the CL and TL2 are due an update and that I could be buying ‘obsolete’ technology, especially as Leica does not seem to be updating the TL2 firmware for new lenses.

However, everything has its price and the kit discounts make the TL2 look very attractive. 
 

TL2 + 18mm       €1,730

TL2 + 18-56mm  €2,360

In comparison, the CL prices I can get are as follows. 
 

CL + 18mm         €2,545

CL + 18-56mm   €3,010

 

The fly in the ointment is that I have fallen in love with the Panda look CL in silver but have concerns about pocketability and charging convenience. The better support by Leica for the CL has me leaning in this direction - even at the higher price. 
 

my question to you all is;

Have I thought about this the right way and are my observations valid or is there something I’ve missed? An in store look is not the same as living with the camera.

Should I get the TL2 knowing that it’s highly likely to be a dead end but is priced accordingly?

Or should I get the CL and work on accommodating the form factor (even though a CL2 seems to be around the corner)?


Thank you in advance. 
 

 

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What I did was have a CL and buy a TL for next to nothing - It has a life as an X2 replacement with the 18 mounted and as backup for the  CL. Surprisingly good camera.  I really like this little camera. I see the TL2 more as a camera for those who want to have it as their only camera and want to take advantage of the slight improvements. As it is I would not upgrade my CL and buy a CL2 new - I'd wait a year or two and get a used one.

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14 minutes ago, Reggie said:

I have fallen in love with the Panda look CL in silver but have concerns about pocketability and charging convenience.

If you are seriously looking for a pocketable camera, I would look elsewhere. The current model of the Ricoh GR comes to mind.

Regarding charging convenience, just buy a USB charger with additional batteries and be done. The charger is something like 50g.

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Hi Reggie,

Over the last 10 years, I have been on a leica journey having a sometime owned most of the models and currently have an M246 monochrome and an SL. I had a CL and a couple of lenses and sold them a couple of years ago. But I longed for a camera I can have with me at all times, there is truth in the saying that the best camera is the one you have with you, so I recently bought a used TL2 and 18mm pancake lens and I love it and for what I want it for is much better than the CL. I love the interface and that it easily fits in my jacket pocket, I can add the visoflex EVF when needed and with adaptors, there is a huge range of lenses I can use with it.

Personally, I also love the features it has over the CL like the internal memory, and the USB Charging.

I can thoroughly recommended it.

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39 minutes ago, fielden said:

Hi Reggie,

Over the last 10 years, I have been on a leica journey having a sometime owned most of the models and currently have an M246 monochrome and an SL. I had a CL and a couple of lenses and sold them a couple of years ago. But I longed for a camera I can have with me at all times, there is truth in the saying that the best camera is the one you have with you, so I recently bought a used TL2 and 18mm pancake lens and I love it and for what I want it for is much better than the CL. I love the interface and that it easily fits in my jacket pocket, I can add the visoflex EVF when needed and with adaptors, there is a huge range of lenses I can use with it.

Personally, I also love the features it has over the CL like the internal memory, and the USB Charging.

I can thoroughly recommended it.

Thank you for the positive response Graeme. It's hard to find too many positive endorsements for the TL2 relative to the CL so I really appreciate you sharing your experience and context of use.

1 hour ago, Joachim_I said:

If you are seriously looking for a pocketable camera, I would look elsewhere. The current model of the Ricoh GR comes to mind.

Regarding charging convenience, just buy a USB charger with additional batteries and be done. The charger is something like 50g.

Hi Joachim, thank you for suggesting the Ricoh. Certainly more pocketable than the TL2 but I don't know if I'm willing to give up the flexibilty of interchangeable lenses for a smaller form factor. I know I'm talking about the portability of the TL2 with 18mm lens but I do also want to be abe to shoot longer focal lengths (recognising, of course, that pocketability is out the window with the larger lenses)

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

What I did was have a CL and buy a TL for next to nothing - It has a life as an X2 replacement with the 18 mounted and as backup for the  CL. Surprisingly good camera.  I really like this little camera. I see the TL2 more as a camera for those who want to have it as their only camera and want to take advantage of the slight improvements. As it is I would not upgrade my CL and buy a CL2 new - I'd wait a year or two and get a used one.

Thanks for sharing how you use the TL Jaap. I think I would have the TL2 or CL as my only camera for now. Ironically, if I got the TL2 first, it would be easier to justify the later purchase of a CL2 (whenever that might come out) than if I had bought the CL first.

Edited by Reggie
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As context, I have had M, TL2 (twice), and now have CL, SL2 and Sigma fp. Think of the latter as a TL2 but full frame.

I don't think you're daft thinking about the TL2 and 18mm, though forget about pocketability with the 18-56. I loved the look and feel of the TL2, and the interface. There were two things about it that made me sell it, twice:
- Lack of an EVF; yes, you can use the add-on EVF, but it's not a great experience IMO, and removes the elegance.
- Using the LCD. This is a personal matter and depends on your eyes. I need eye correction for reading, which includes using the TL2 screen; I wear contacts in daytime, which is OK, but other times, often in the evening, I'm using varifocal spectacles or nothing. I find the varifocals (which have the reading section at the bottom) a pain to use with the TL2, and wearing nothing is impossible. OTOH, the CL, SL and M viewfinders all place the image 2m in front of your eyes, which is fine for me, with contacts, varifocals or bare naked. 

I've had a Ricoh - an earlier version (GRD-IV) - and it produces great images, is easily pocketable etc, but using it in parallel (then) with an M produced too great a disconnect in UI styles, and I was never really slick with it.

The Sigma fp, though, is like a smaller but fatter TL2: full frame, no EVF, superb image quality, L-mount, and a UI which is comparable with a Leica (better in some respects). It is brick-shaped, though, and with a lens it's never going to be as pocketable as the TL2+18, though I did use it for a while with the Summaron-M 35/2.8. For me the fp has the same problem with reading the screen as with the TL2, but I'm using it mainly for video on a tripod where that is less of an issue.

 

Edit. Maybe the TL2 will be terminated by Leica, maybe not. No one knows. I doubt the APS-C L-lenses will be terminated (despite what some on this forum - no names 😉 - may say), so you can still develop your system and switch to the CL/CLn in due course. One thing Leica is good at is maintaining backward compatibility through all its mounts since the dawn of time. 

Edit 2: to all those who say "the best camera is the one you have with you". That is nonsense: the best camera is the one you don't have, the one that has just been released, the one that you can just afford with a bit of domestic financial skullduggery, and the one that will guarantee you take MUCH better photos. I know this is true.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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33 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

As context, I have had M, TL2 (twice), and now have CL, SL and Sigma fp. Think of the latter as a TL2 but full frame.

I don't think you're daft thinking about the TL2 and 18mm, though forget about pocketability with the 18-56. I loved the look and feel of the TL2, and the interface. There were two things about it that made me sell it, twice:
- Lack of an EVF; yes, you can use the add-on EVF, but it's not a great experience IMO, and removes the elegance.
- Using the LCD. This is a personal matter and depends on your eyes. I need eye correction for reading, which includes using the TL2 screen; I wear contacts in daytime, which is OK, but other times, often in the evening, I'm using varifocal spectacles or nothing. I find the varifocals (which have the reading section at the bottom) a pain to use with the TL2, and wearing nothing is impossible. OTOH, the CL, SL and M viewfinders all place the image 2m in front of your eyes, which is fine for me, with contacts, varifocals or bare naked. 

I've had a Ricoh - an earlier version (GRD-IV) - and it produces great images, is easily pocketable etc, but using it in parallel (then) with an M produced too great a disconnect in UI styles, and I was never really slick with it.

The Sigma fp, though, is like a smaller but fatter TL2: full frame, no EVF, superb image quality, and an UI which is comparable with a Leica (better in some respects). With a lens, though, it's never going to be as pocketable as the TL2+18, though I did use it for a while with the Summaron-M 35/2.8. For me the fp has the same problem with reading the screen as with the TL2, but I'm using it mainly for video on a tripod where that is less of an issue.

Hi Paul, thanks for your observations. Despite your warmth towards the TL2, I think your experience might just have put the kybosh on my plans to get one (and the Sigma fp for that matter as I was considering that after Steve Huff's enthusiastic review). The issue is that, like you, I also need eye correction for reading and have varifocals. I don't use contact lenses. I don't have issues with using an iPhone so perhaps I won't with the TL2? It's a shame that the store didn't have a working version for me to try out.

Edited by Reggie
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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

LCDs are a pain in sunlight...

That is true - it's just the same for an iPhone so at least I know what I'll be in for. Sunlight will be a pain for composition but I don't tend to mess around with settings so screen readability in general shouldn't be a problem unless there's something about the TL2 UI which needs a lot of attention paid to the screen? I guess A, S and ISO info will be key but from what 've seen, that info is displayed white on black so it should be visible enough - no?

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Yes, as LCDs go they are not too bad on the T series and the menu is high-contrast B&W icons. You don''t have too much to do with the menu screen in general and can put everything you need regularly on the main screen. I dont think the EVF adds very much to the concept - I skipped buying it, as it would have cost more than the camera itself.

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I don't find LCDs in sunlight too much of a problem, but I know some do. I found the TL2 comparable to a smartphone in this respect. If you can rely on AF then you need worry less about seeing the screen in detail, but no AF is 100% reliable at reading your mind and knowing what you want to focus on. 

Yes, I liked the TL2, but in the end I need a camera that makes it easy for me to take photos, not one I have to squint at because my eyes don't work well with it.

I recommend travelling to another dealer with one in stock to look at.

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For no good reason - except that I like well designed objects - I am a big fan of the T series. Had the original, and now have the TL2. Note that image characteristics are ever so slightly different between the two, the original was, for lack of a better word, crisper, but lacked higher ISO capabilities. There isn't much in it re pixel count (16 vs. 24), so you could also, like Jaap and some others I know of, pick up a well-preserved T or TL, screw any kind of lens on it you want, and see how the two of you get along. If it doesn't work out, you could sell it again for no loss at all (usually).  AF speed and responsiveness (among other things) is improved on the TL2, there's even face detect, which I don't remember my original T had. One feature I personally appreciate on the TL2 is the GPS functionality of the Visoflex. I travel a lot, and those coordinates are useful to have. Other than that, I like the various skins you can throw on (or clip on) the T/TL/TL2, the 16/32GB internal storage, and when you decide you want to move on from the 18mm to some higher end glass such as the artsy 35mm f1.4, the incredibly versatile 11-23mm or the very sharp 55-135mm, those options are all available. It gets to be a bit of an investment by that point, though (unless you go the Sigma route).

All that being said, if you really only are looking for a versatile, high quality, pocketable travel camera, as others have stated, there are excellent alternatives on the market. The T series has come to an end.

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30 minutes ago, HuntingSand said:

... when you decide you want to move on from the 18mm to some higher end glass such as the artsy 35mm f1.4, the incredibly versatile 11-23mm or the very sharp 55-135mm, those options are all available. It gets to be a bit of an investment by that point, though (unless you go the Sigma route).

All that being said, if you really only are looking for a versatile, high quality, pocketable travel camera, as others have stated, there are excellent alternatives on the market. The T series has come to an end.

I think that's my conundrum and one which I hope the TL2 can answer. I don't want to get 'just' a travel camera. I want to have the flexibility to take it beyond that and I also want to put the art back into my photography.

I have also realised that I'm going to have to relearn how to post-process the image. Manuipulating digital images is going to be somewhat different to dodging images on Ilford paper in the dark room.

Edited by Reggie
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For less than the price of Elmarit-TL 18mm, just buy the Ricoh GR III. It will be really pocketable.

TL2 + 18mm is not really. Except for very deep pocket, pun intended. 

Handling wise, the GR III will be better than slippery TL2  

Of course you can still buy TL2 on the side with a longer lens. 

 

 

Edited by nicci78
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1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

For less than the price of Elmarit-TL 18mm, just buy the Ricoh GR III. It will be really pocketable.

TL2 + 18mm is not really. Except for very deep pocket, pun intended. 
 

😂😂😂

Deep pockets are a necessary requirement when considering a Leica!

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I was thinking jeans/trousers pocket of course. 

TL2 + 18mm real problems for pocket are :     
depth TL2+ 18mm = 50mm,  CL+18mm = 56mm and GR III is only 33mm thick. 
- length TL2 = 135mm vs CL = 131mm vs GR III = 109mm.   
- height TL2 = 69mm vs CL = 79mm vs GR III = 62mm
- weight : TL2/CL +18mm = 480g which is really noticeable in any pocket. GR III 250g is way closer to iPhone 11 Pro Max 225g. So eminently more pocket friendly. 
 

 

I tried for 3 months to use T+18mm as pocket camera. But in the end it is way too heavy, too wide and too thick for that. But it is way better than CL for that task anyway. 

Edited by nicci78
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3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I was thinking jeans/trousers pocket of course. 

TL2 + 18mm real problems for pocket are :     
depth TL2+ 18mm = 50mm,  CL+18mm = 56mm and GR III is only 33mm thick. 
- length TL2 = 135mm vs CL = 131mm vs GR III = 109mm.   
- height TL2 = 69mm vs CL = 79mm vs GR III = 62mm
- weight : TL2/CL +18mm = 480g which is really noticeable in any pocket. GR III 250g is way closer to iPhone 11 Pro Max 225g. So eminently more pocket friendly. 
 

 

I tried for 3 months to use T+18mm as pocket camera. But in the end it is way too heavy, too wide and too thick for that. But it is way better than CL for that task anyway. 

Thanks nicci. It's getting to the stage where even iPhones are too big for jeans pockets. Fine while standing up but the phone needs to be removed when sitting down.

The GR III is a useful benchmark but I still want the flexibility to go to longer focal lengths otherwise I might as well stick with the iPhone or get a Sony RX100. If the TL2+18mm doesn't really work any better as a jeans or jacket pocket camera than the CL then that's one  of its major benefits negated.

 

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3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I was thinking jeans/trousers pocket of course. 

TL2 + 18mm real problems for pocket are :     
depth TL2+ 18mm = 50mm,  CL+18mm = 56mm and GR III is only 33mm thick. 
- length TL2 = 135mm vs CL = 131mm vs GR III = 109mm.   
- height TL2 = 69mm vs CL = 79mm vs GR III = 62mm
- weight : TL2/CL +18mm = 480g which is really noticeable in any pocket. GR III 250g is way closer to iPhone 11 Pro Max 225g. So eminently more pocket friendly. 
 

 

I tried for 3 months to use T+18mm as pocket camera. But in the end it is way too heavy, too wide and too thick for that. But it is way better than CL for that task anyway. 

My wife complains when I have a lighter in my trousers pocket...

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