Question regarding Rigid Summicron 50mm (V2 with dual scale)

[dopamine0913]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi! I would like to seek some advice regarding the lens ,  any comments / advice would be much appreciated.

I recently got a Rigid Summicron V2, according to the serial of the lens it is made in 1962. 
I wanted to check if the serial at the front matches the serial on the focus module, but I was only able to unscrew the front element, while the rear element is still stuck in the focus module, like in this picture (but my silver ring didn't come loose). 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I thought that this may not be a problem as the rear element could be ?stiff/stuck if it has not been tampered with for a long time?

However, I noticed that the lens has 'LENS MADE IN GERMANY' engraved, like in the following picture, which seems to be a feature only present in later 1965-1966 rigids.

From what I see online, 1962 Rigids only engraved 'GERMANY' on the focus module (in the picture below) 

Hence I would like to ask:
1. Does that mean my optic module and focus module could be from different years ? So the serials actually may not match? (if i am able to unscrew the whole optic from focus module)

2. If so, does it matter? The focus seems to work fine and pictures are decent. 
3. To your knowledge, are there 1962 rigid summicrons that has 'LENS MADE IN GERMANY' engraved?

Thank you. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by dopamine0913

[tobey bilek]

Mine just happened to be on the desk when I read this , so.

serial 2116976

simply says Germany

It was extremely difficult to get lens optics removed 20 years ago, but I got it.  My V3 Summicron was the same.   Now probably worse.  in any case full serial is not hand scribed like 90 and 135 lenses using last 4 digits,   but is printed in small white numerals the full matching serial number.

You may look up the date of manufacture.

Mine is pristine factory fresh and I will never sell it. It is so clean I am afraid to use it.

May I suggest you reassemble and put a wide rubber band right in front of focus ring where it is supposed to break apart.  That or leave it alone.    

unless you have need for another use for lens unit only like enlarging lens or focoslide which I do not recommend as it has pretty bad field curvature.  V3 is much flatter.  V4 does not come apart.  It do work well printing cardboard mounted slides which are not flat.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by tobey bilek

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[wda]

I have one of the last V2 rigid 50 mm Summicron lenses which I bought new. At one time I used the lens unit with BOOWU-M copy-legs. The optical unit unscrewed easily and has remained thus. It was excellent for copying small flat object, like old picture postcards or old photographs. If you bought your copy used, then you have no idea of its past history. I would be little concerned by your experience of separating the elements of the optical unit.  I would certainly have it checked out to confirm its integrity.

Before the separation, how did the lens perform on your camera, producing real pictures, rather than test targets?

[luigi bertolotti]

I can only say that my Summicron rigid is of similar age (1.986.334 - 1963) and indeed has only "GERMANY" at the base (btw, real focal is like the one you depicted..."19") ; serial # written inside the focus unit in the usual position :  me too found difficult, the first time, to unscrew the head... probably it was never... and the part of the side surface "hidden" had a slightly different aspect, due to years and years (> 20) without seeing the light... 😉. Try harder as suggested by Tobey.

The "Germany" inscription did indeed varied in the years.. for instance, a not so much older item displayed by Lager (1.786.xxx) has "GERMANY" only, but written not in the slanted base but onto the ring with distance scales (as is on the item you depicted in your first photo, differently from the 3rd picture)

Edited September 23, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[dopamine0913]

14 hours ago, tobey bilek said:

May I suggest you reassemble and put a wide rubber band right in front of focus ring where it is supposed to break apart.  That or leave it alone.    

unless you have need for another use for lens unit only like enlarging lens or focoslide which I do not recommend as it has pretty bad field curvature.  V3 is much flatter.  V4 does not come apart.  It do work well printing cardboard mounted slides which are not flat.

 

Thank you all for your replies. 

Out of curiosity, regarding the wide rubber band placed in front of focus ring, in other words, it should be placed at the aperture ring? So does one unscrew by turning to F2 and then twist anticlockwise? 

I did not attempt to apply force to the aperture ring as I wasn't sure what could happen. I probably would just leave it alone as the lens can still be returned to the seller if necessary. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

13 hours ago, wda said:

If you bought your copy used, then you have no idea of its past history. I would be little concerned by your experience of separating the elements of the optical unit.  I would certainly have it checked out to confirm its integrity.

Before the separation, how did the lens perform on your camera, producing real pictures, rather than test targets?

Indeed. I can still return the lens hence I will probably leave it , in case anything happens during the checking.  

The lens is not separated, the front element can be easily screwed back onto the rear element and the lens functions the same

I adapted it to mirrorless and I think the pictures are really good. I didn't take any pictures of test targets. 

 

12 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

I can only say that my Summicron rigid is of similar age (1.986.334 - 1963) and indeed has only "GERMANY" at the base (btw, real focal is like the one you depicted..."19") ; serial # written inside the focus unit in the usual position :  me too found difficult, the first time, to unscrew the head... probably it was never... and the part of the side surface "hidden" had a slightly different aspect, due to years and years (> 20) without seeing the light... 😉. Try harder as suggested by Tobey.

The "Germany" inscription did indeed varied in the years.. for instance, a not so much older item displayed by Lager (1.786.xxx) has "GERMANY" only, but written not in the slanted base but onto the ring with distance scales (as is on the item you depicted in your first photo, differently from the 3rd picture)

Yes, the 'Germany' inscription did vary over the years. From what I gather online, 

in 1961 it is 'Germany' at the distance scales 

1962 and till 1965 'Germany' at the slanted base

1966 'LENS MADE in GERMANY'  

I am not sure if it means the lens is 'frankensteined' if it doesn't follow the pattern. 

[jaapv]

Why return it? A lens this age needs a CLA anyway, if only to renew the lubricant and wipe haze off the glass and a technician is unlikely to encounter much difficulty getting it unscrewed.

[dopamine0913]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Why return it? A lens this age needs a CLA anyway, if only to renew the lubricant and wipe haze off the glass and a technician is unlikely to encounter much difficulty getting it unscrewed.

Mainly because I am concerned about the 'integrity' of the lens because it seems 1962 rigids generally do not have 'LENS MADE IN GERMANY' inscription. 

I just thought if I am considering returning it, it might be better if I leave it untouched instead of sending it to a technician? 

The lens has a few coating marks, very thin haze, take nice photos from what I see. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by dopamine0913

[jaapv]

Well, that is of course a valid decision for a reason.

Edited September 24, 2020 by jaapv

[pedaes]

7 minutes ago, dopamine0913 said:

Mainly because I am concerned about the 'integrity' of the lens because it seems 1962 rigids generally do not have 'LENS MADE IN GERMANY' inscription. 

I just thought if I am considering returning it, it might be better if I leave it untouched instead of sending it to a technician? 

The lens a few coating marks, very thin haze, take nice photos from what I see. 

I don't think Leica manufacturing dates or numbering is very precise. I would be very surprised if a year change was made exactly on 1st January and they recovered all lenses part made to update.

Irrespective of what sellers may say, it is very difficult to find a copy of this lens with minimal haze and few 'cleaning marks' because of relatively soft coatings. I would follow jaapv's advice and send it for a CLA and enjoy it.

[jaapv]

Not only is the numbering imprecise, parts did get mixed up between the batches too, causing production dates to be years out of step with the numbering occasionally. Engraving was, up to recently and maybe even still, done by hand and the number of variations  and mistakes is endless. There is no way you can draw a firm conclusion from that engraving.

[TomB_tx]

When the whole optical head does not unscrew as a unit, but the front group separates as you show, it is very difficult to remove the back group from the focusing mount. On my rigid the entire head removes easily, but on my DR (same optical head design) the front group separates as on yours. It needed a CLA anyway, so I sent it to DAG. After CLA the front group still unscrews by itself, so I assume it is not a good idea to try and “cure” this condition.

[willeica]

I have 1944466 Rigid Summicron from about 1962 with Germany on the slanted base. A quick check reveals the lens can come apart as illustrated above, but further disassembling would require expert hands. There is no sign of another number that I can see. The points made above about lack of consistency in the manufacturing processes by Leica are very valid. I know that in the US 'car guys' go on with a lot of palaver about matching numbers, but this is a lot less significant when it comes to collecting cameras. I have a large collection of Leica cameras and lenses and , as regards the cameras, at least a third of them are 'Frankensteins' of some kind with some post manufacture alterations. I don't value them any less than the completely original cameras. What I don't do is to have any further alterations carried out, other than to have CLAs done for the purposes of using the cameras.

In this case, it may well have been that the mount was changed at some stage either in the factory or by a CLA person. All of this is valid as the new part won't make the lens any less effective in use. I have seen collections of major collectors which are full of altered Leicas and such cameras regularly come up at auction and sometimes I buy them even after disclosure of alteration has been made. If, however, you only want absolutely original lenses, then you might be tempted to get all variants with the 'Germany' on the distance scales and the sloping mount and the 'Made in Germany' variant as well. I have tried to do this with I Model As and I can assure you it soon gets very expensive. I think I have 6 or 7 out of 10 variants, but, even then, very few of them are absolutely original. One of the common issues is that a camera with no depth of field scale on the lens has had that one replaced by a later lens with a depth of field scale rendering the camera 'incorrect' from an originality perspective. I could give a lot of other examples, but originality is a hard and expensive road to follow. Ultimately the decision is yours as to what you want yourself.

William