Self timer '&' bracketing

[Guest]

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4 hours ago, pgk said:

I do this manually all the time. Its actually very easy, but you raise a couple of interesting points.

Firstly, you should not get camera wobble on a tripod. There are only two types of tripod; those which hold the camera steady, and those which don't. If you get any sort of wobble even taking bracketed exposures manually, then you are using the second type and its not fit for purpose. I learnt a long time ago that to be effective a tripod MUST be stable (and I now have several tripods for varied tasks including some large, costly (when new - mine are battered) carbon fibre Gitzos which are as heavy as I am prepared to carry and rock solid).

Simplicity of menus is a key to operating well. I find that I am far slower using a Sony camera than a Leica M because of the plethora of features. I would rather have less features on a more intuitive camera. Even if I had it (I suppose that I may have it on the Sony) I would be unlikely to use it because I prefer not to wade through menus trying to find an automated way of doing something simple.

I had an olympus camera and the menu and all the "features" were a nightmare,the camera sometimes seemed to be doing something i didn't want it to do!

Less is more for me at least,that's why i enjoy using the M series [ m262].

[250swb]

11 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You would have my full, absolute and total agreement.......... if I took the same sort of photos as you, of the same subject, in the same style, under the same constraints....... 

But I don't. 

I wasn't telling you what to do, in fact I didn't say 'you' at all. But it seems reasonable that if you can object to a cable release because somebody may forget to buy one I should be able to point out that once bought it works 100% better than wishing.

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[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I wasn't telling you what to do, in fact I didn't say 'you' at all. But it seems reasonable that if you can object to a cable release because somebody may forget to buy one I should be able to point out that once bought it works 100% better than wishing.

I suspect you could start an argument on your own in a locked room.

I have no objection to a cable release....except when I can't use one....because the SL and CL don't take them. If I still had an M I might use the one I have in a drawer - though I'd rather use a 2sec delay timer for the rare occasions I need to.

[250swb]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I suspect you could start an argument on your own in a locked room.

I have no objection to a cable release....except when I can't use one....because the SL and CL don't take them. If I still had an M I might use the one I have in a drawer - though I'd rather use a 2sec delay timer for the rare occasions I need to.

You can get those thingies that strap around the camera using Velcro and allow for a cable release with badly designed cameras, or buy the dedicated electronic remote release to plug in.

[scott kirkpatrick]

If Leica had better control over the function  in Fotos and completely coordinated the feature sets in their cameras, this could be handled.  The CL still has shot delays separated from the rest of the drive menu, but Fotos doesn't.  And Fotos, while it can enable the multishot options in the cameras it talks to, for some strange reason cannot execute them . Perhaps the return of control is buggy and Fotos doesn't know when a multishot option has completed. 

I have no direct knowledge of how Leica is designing and building this firmware/app combination, I just see the results when they ship cameras.  But it seems that Fotos just writes various messages to the camera, and doesn't have a way to check that the actions that a shutter press causes have finished.  For video (at $50 extra per year) the actions "start video" and "stop video" can be issued at any time.  But for, say, multishot bracketing, Fotos needs to wait for a message along the lines of "all five shots completed, sir!" before making any further demands.  And while it might be nice if all L and M cameras separated delayed shooting from complex multishot actions, I would think that with the camera resting stably somehow, remote initiation over BT or WiFi would not introduce vibration so thee would then be no need to delay them.

[LocalHero1953]

Despite all the normal internet forum noise along the lines of "why do you want to do this?" and "you should use this workaround" and "this is the traditional way of doing it" (we haven't yet heard "if you want that why not get a Fuji?"), I have yet to hear a reason why it would be detrimental to other users if one could choose delayed release independent of other drive modes.

[rramesh]

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The issue is this. Leica seems to be stuck in the classic mind-set that everything must be done in-camera.Whilst simple it means Leica cannot introduce newer software features sooner. This is not say that other vendors are not, but they have the ability to introduce newer product releases, in shorter intervals.

In the digital world, most vendors introduce new cameras annually, if not sooner. Volumes justify this, for the likes of Sony, Canon and Nikon who own most of their supply chain. A boutique manufacturer like Leica cannot afford this, so new models come out every 2-3 years, with small incremental features.

Mobile apps like Fotos, on the other hand can go through new releases in shorter windows of 6-9 months. In fact annual OS enhancements dictate some of these release feature requirements.

This means that new software features, which cannot be introduced in the camera can and should be introduced in a 'companion App' like Fotos.

Leica needs to have a must more streamlined development strategy around Fotos to plug any missing gaps (feature, use case etc.) in the camera software while at the same time innovating in this area. After all, the only setting that is manually set is aperture and focus. Everything else can be sent from the App to the camera to be electronically set and shutter triggered.

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by rramesh

[pgk]

33 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

..... I have yet to hear a reason why it would be detrimental to other users if one could choose delayed release independent of other drive modes.

Because it introduces yet more complexity, more things in the menu and thus detracts from what many of us see underpinning the Leica rangefinder concept - simplicity.

For the interior, bracketed images of a building, the rangefinder is not the camera I would immediately choose to use - its framing capability is not precise enough, so its a compromise. Why modify a camera to deal with compromise situations by complicating it? We will probably have to agree to disagree about this one. I still think that a fully manual, minimalism Leica would sell because it would offer a unique solution to many of us and one which is still extremely capable. But adding features is moving away from simplicity and will never satisfy everyone because the camera itself has inherent limitations.

[LocalHero1953]

Well, I realise this is a M thread! Although I no longer own an M, I had one continuously from 1980 till last year, and I disagree that it is not suitable for shooting the interiors of buildings - but I'll let others defend the M use envelope, as I am only using the CL and SL for that. I also do not see separating delayed release from other functions as adding complexity - it is no more complex than carrying a cable release to do the same thing. The M8, M9 and M240 had a halfway house: delayed release on the ON-OFF ring (I don't remember if they had automatic exposure bracketing).

I'm sure you're right about a fully manual, minimalist M selling - one has only to look at the MD: I find it bizarre, but others love it, and I don't have a problem with that.

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

.... I  do not see separating delayed release from other functions as adding complexity - it is no more complex than carrying a cable release to do the same thing. The M8, M9 and M240 had a halfway house: delayed release on the ON-OFF ring (I don't remember if they had automatic exposure bracketing).

I'm sure you're right about a fully manual, minimalist M selling - one has only to look at the MD: I find it bizarre, but others love it, and I don't have a problem with that.

Dumping the two possible time delays into the already overcrowded Drive menu certainly hasn't reduced complexity.  Somewhere down deep inside the firmware there is a module that triggers the shutter, once or multiple times.  It has to ensure that things are finished properly not to leave the camera in a hung state, and also to respond quickly the next time you want to shoot a picture.  Putting delay into the drive menu, which mostly initiates things which start at a higher level, saves a tiny fraction of shutter response time, because if delays were set by a separate menu and implemented down at the bottom of things, each time you press the shutter, it would have to ask somehow, "Do you mean NOW?"  While that sounds clumsy, it would actually be imperceptible if implemented properly.

[LocalHero1953]

I can see that a time delay for multiple exposures would also beg the question: "a delay for each one? Or just the first one?" (i.e. "do you want the camera to recover from just your finger, or from the shutter shock?"). 

These questions are for Leica, though - IMO it's a reasonable request to be implemented if possible.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Multi-shot actions that might be used in a studio with a flash usually include a delay between exposures for the flash to recharge.  Not having a studio or a flash, I am not sure if Leica includes this.  But you give a good reason to keep the time delay up with the other complex drive commands.  That's for implementation.  The forced choice of just one drive setting instead of an  initial delay combined with some other action is still not doing what is needed. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Guest]

Keep all the superfluous rubbish out of the m is the best policy in my view.

Why are people so keen to make a unique camera the same as all the other complicated computers? 

I know the M10R has a touchscreen which is sad but its still a camera that has the only features you need and no features you do not need.

God only knows why anyone needs auto-bracketing anyway? never mind with a self timer.

[rramesh]

16 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Dumping the two possible time delays into the already overcrowded Drive menu certainly hasn't reduced complexity.  Somewhere down deep inside the firmware there is a module that triggers the shutter, once or multiple times.  It has to ensure that things are finished properly not to leave the camera in a hung state, and also to respond quickly the next time you want to shoot a picture.  Putting delay into the drive menu, which mostly initiates things which start at a higher level, saves a tiny fraction of shutter response time, because if delays were set by a separate menu and implemented down at the bottom of things, each time you press the shutter, it would have to ask somehow, "Do you mean NOW?"  While that sounds clumsy, it would actually be imperceptible if implemented properly.

This is a no-brainer if enabled via an improved Fotos app. Fotos can easily offer various ways of programming initial wait, shutter interval, exposure variations and then triggering the shutter. The Leica Camera-Fotos API already seems to have this capability (setting exposure and pushing to camera then push trigger to shutter).  

Edited September 25, 2020 by rramesh

[scott kirkpatrick]

3 hours ago, rramesh said:

This is a no-brainer if enabled via an improved Fotos app. Fotos can easily offer various ways of programming initial wait, shutter interval, exposure variations and then triggering the shutter. The Leica Camera-Fotos API already seems to have this capability (setting exposure and pushing to camera then push trigger to shutter).  

Spend some time using the Fotos app before you assume that it can do anything we can think of.  It is surprisingly limited, and frequently doesn't do what you think it should be able to (e.g. trigger a bracketing set of shots).  Reasons for this are not clear, but may be a result of Leica's handing large parts of the work off to subcontractors.

[pgk]

6 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Keep all the superfluous rubbish out of the m is the best policy in my view.

Why are people so keen to make a unique camera the same as all the other complicated computers? 

I know the M10R has a touchscreen which is sad but its still a camera that has the only features you need and no features you do not need.

God only knows why anyone needs auto-bracketing anyway? never mind with a self timer.

Features are useful when they are useful - that is on cameras which are suitable for the job in hand. However the M series has an essence which is simplicity. In today's world of sophisticated electronics in which some devices try to undertake roles that they were not intended for and which they are unsuited for (smartphones as cameras are a good example - they are technically capable but ergonomically disastrous for photography and require 'add ons' to help), the Leica M should IMO be simplified, not have features added - mirrorless are the opposite in that they lend themselves to increasingly versatile modifications through software and by being linked to computers which will take them far forward. But IMO the M should be a highly simplistic, manual camera which offers an entirely different photographic experience. Leicamake different models for a reason. Adding more features to the M should not be seen as a solution but a detraction.

[rramesh]

The camera menu options should be kept simple in the essence of minimalism and manual control. I don't disagree here. But there is no reason for the Fotos App to offer more as it can be used by all applicable Leica cameras with WiFi.

1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Spend some time using the Fotos app before you assume that it can do anything we can think of.  It is surprisingly limited, and frequently doesn't do what you think it should be able to (e.g. trigger a bracketing set of shots).  Reasons for this are not clear, but may be a result of Leica's handing large parts of the work off to subcontractors.

I never said Fotos does what it is supposed to do correctly. For instance, bracketing does not work. It does have APIs between camera and app because you can trigger shutter and set other parameters. The App can and should use this in ways useful for the photographer using it as a remote commander. Seems Leica thinks the App is more useful as a photo editor and blogging tool.

In my earlier post.

On 9/24/2020 at 3:13 PM, rramesh said:

Leica needs to have a must more streamlined development strategy around Fotos to plug any missing gaps (feature, use case etc.) in the camera software while at the same time innovating in this area. After all, the only setting that is manually set is aperture and focus. Everything else can be sent from the App to the camera to be electronically set and shutter triggered.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by rramesh

[LocalHero1953]

Once you let the digital genie out of the bottle it simply becomes a question of which digital features you're willing to accept. So no Fotos? 

[pippy]

On 9/24/2020 at 9:28 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

...I'm sure you're right about a fully manual, minimalist M selling - one has only to look at the MD: I find it bizarre, but others love it...

Hmmm.....

I'm not so sure the M-D was too successful, Paul, at least in terms of units sold of the original version (i.e. not M-10 variant). There is a thread in the appropriate sub-forum where owners of the M-D Typ-262 have been posting serial numbers in order to gauge an approximate idea of numbers made and 'best-guess' at the moment seems to be only around 1,000 examples; possibly less.

For myself this camera is nigh-on the perfect digital-M. I can't think of anything which might improve the shooting experience apart from removing the adjustable-wheel-bump thing at the right-rear of the top-plate. But I'm weird.

Philip.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by pippy

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[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

Hmmm.....

I'm not so sure the M-D was too successful, Paul, at least in terms of units sold of the original version (i.e. not M-10 variant). There is a thread in the appropriate sub-forum where owners of the M-D Typ-262 have been posting serial numbers in order to gauge an approximate idea of numbers made and 'best-guess' at the moment seems to be only around 1,000 examples; possibly less.

For myself this camera is nigh-on the perfect digital-M. I can't think of anything which might improve the shooting experience apart from removing the adjustable-wheel-bump thing at the right-rear of the top-plate. But I'm weird.

Philip.

 

I actually meant MD and M10D. It would also be interesting to know how many the current one has sold. I'm surprised at what you report on the older one.