Rangefinder patch question

[sergiomarried]

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Hi friends,

After some months with the M10 I’ve noticed that often times, when putting the M10 vertically (portrait mode), the rangefinder patch double image is not very clearly seen when moving the focus tab on the lens... Is like it would become like invisible? I usually switch to horizontal standard mode and then it’s working perfectly, switch back to portrait and no issues, the double image is seen clearly... Am I crazy or have you ever experienced something similar???

Thanks a lot in advanced and regards, Sergio

[jaapv]

Finger before window... 

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[a.noctilux]

Hello Sergio,

Very long time ago, some decades when I was new to Leica M,

I had one of my digits in front of the RF window, most of time when I use the M in vertical framing.

The window for second image is the one at far right, check that you don't have one digit in front of the window.

[adan]

The finger over the (small) rangefinder window is certainly possible. But for me it is usually all or nothing (and I have to be wearing gloves to do it). Either it is not blocked at all, or not visible at all. But check that.

But let's explore holding a Leica M a bit more, because one characteristic of the Leica RF is that the shooting eye must be centered and at the right distance behind the eyepiece window. Or the images can indeed get fuzzy or hard to see (but  not invisible).

And how the camera is held (and which eye is used) can mess with Leica's carefully-thought-out handling expectations.

How are you holding your camera? And which eye do you use to look through the viewfinder?

Edited September 15, 2020 by adan

[sergiomarried]

Thanks for the several replies. I'm obviously aware of the finger on rf window potential issue... who knows, maybe I was doing it and didn't realise about it... Regarding the holding camera and RF proper use I feel it's a very interesting topic. I've experienced myself that this is not a trivial topic at all. For example, with the 35mm mounted, in order to see the frame lines completely I struggle a bit, and it seems that how you position your eye and the angle on the viewfinder influences a lot... I figure that it's even more challenging when using 28mm lines... sometimes it's difficult to have an easy view of the whole frame at once without looking around, you know what I mean?

I'm fortunate (or not?) enough to be "right eye dominant" so I can enjoy a free space when using RF style cameras like the Leica. 

[adan]

2 hours ago, sergiomarried said:

it seems that how you position your eye and the angle on the viewfinder influences a lot

Exactly.

And the M10's higher eyepoint and larger eyepiece (to help those of us who wear glasses) makes this a little more likely. And even more so in the vertical orientation, where the stabilization and natural positioning of the M body by the nose and face is subtly different, and the RF images are moving up and down, instead of side-to-side.

Personally, I tend to focus with the camera held horizontally, and then rotate to the vertical position to snap a vertical picture, when time allows. After 20 years developing this habit, I can do it quickly and smoothly.

Another factor is that a fingerprint on the front RF windows can also reduce the contrast between the two images. And for those of us who use accessory viewfinders for super-wide-angles, the occasional nose-print on the eyepiece on the back . If it is appears harder to see and distinguish the two images, check for skin-oil "haze" and wipe it off.

[dkmoore]

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Also, if you are photographing in the middle of the day when the sun is brightest, the range finder patch can occasionally be difficult to see depending on how bright the sun is and what direction you are facing. I often shoot vertical and notice this more in vertical position which is most likely because the little window is probably taking in too much light but I have no idea if that is the factual reason for it as I’m just guessing why that happens. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by dkmoore

[sergiomarried]

I had no idea... never happened to me with the previous MP 240 I had for a few months... I can say that it only happened to me vertically, that’s for sure... I’d love to know the logic and ways to avoid it if possible... 

[dkmoore]

For me I just don’t point it directly toward the sun. 

[Jeff S]

48 minutes ago, adan said:

Personally, I tend to focus with the camera held horizontally, and then rotate to the vertical position to snap a vertical picture, when time allows. After 20 years developing this habit, I can do it quickly and smoothly.

 

I thought that I might be the only person to regularly do this (for 30 years)!  The M10, with its larger diameter VF took a little bit more concentration initially.

I also still routinely clean the front windows (and eyepiece), without even thinking about it.  Habits.

Jeff

Edited September 15, 2020 by Jeff S

[Alexandre Petrescu]

On 9/13/2020 at 10:21 PM, sergiomarried said:

Hi friends,

After some months with the M10 I’ve noticed that often times, when putting the M10 vertically (portrait mode), the rangefinder patch double image is not very clearly seen when moving the focus tab on the lens... Is like it would become like invisible? I usually switch to horizontal standard mode and then it’s working perfectly, switch back to portrait and no issues, the double image is seen clearly... Am I crazy or have you ever experienced something similar???

Thanks a lot in advanced and regards, Sergio

Sorry, no comment.  I dont have a rangefinder, but I am intrigued by the topic.

I suspect the light emitted by the bright lines might be light reflected from some device (on M-A and MP one can see a third device in the middle of the  outside of the camera, like small horizontal line mirrors - I suspect they generate the brightline frames; when they are vertical they might generate that differently; but on M10 I cant see this third device in the middle; so I dont know.)

Edited September 15, 2020 by Alexandre Petrescu

[jdlaing]

On 9/13/2020 at 3:21 PM, sergiomarried said:

Hi friends,

After some months with the M10 I’ve noticed that often times, when putting the M10 vertically (portrait mode), the rangefinder patch double image is not very clearly seen when moving the focus tab on the lens... Is like it would become like invisible? I usually switch to horizontal standard mode and then it’s working perfectly, switch back to portrait and no issues, the double image is seen clearly... Am I crazy or have you ever experienced something similar???

Thanks a lot in advanced and regards, Sergio

I have a question for you: 

When you switch the camera to vertical is the lens above or below the rangefinder patch illumination window?

[sergiomarried]

1 minute ago, jdlaing said:

I have a question for you: 

When you switch the camera to vertical is the lens above or below the rangefinder patch illumination window?

Good question. It happened to me more often when I had it hold with patch window below, which to be honest I find it quite an awkward way of handling the camera+lens tab.... I was just trying out at times, experimenting, and it's probably somthg to do with this set up? I usually find more comfortable to hold the camera vertically with window patch above the lens

[jdlaing]

4 minutes ago, sergiomarried said:

Good question. It happened to me more often when I had it hold with patch window below, which to be honest I find it quite an awkward way of handling the camera+lens tab.... I was just trying out at times, experimenting, and it's probably somthg to do with this set up? I usually find more comfortable to hold the camera vertically with window patch above the lens

I tried it an the nearest thing I can surmise is shading from the lens. 

[sergiomarried]

1 minute ago, jdlaing said:

I tried it an the nearest thing I can surmise is shading from the lens. 

I'd bet money it's got something to do with this yeah

[Mikep996]

I never noticed an issue with the RF patch though in certain light, sometimes I have difficulty seeing the frame lines.  They are never invisible but sometimes they are hard to see.

 

 It would be neat if they could design a camera so that the image you are viewing when framing a shot was actually seen through the lens itself!  

[mujk]

The rangefinder patch becomes quite dim when your eye is not not positioned in the center of the eyepiece. Maybe that happens more easily in the vertical position. Can you see the entire 35 or 28 framelines when the patch disappears?

[Hey You]

My theory is that the problem is not with the camera but with our brains.  Our eyes focus upon objects thousands of times per day, and they do it the same way that the Leica does, by aligning the image from each eye.  The brain is programmed to focus horizontally, because our eyes are aligned horizontally.  However, we cannot easily focus by aligning vertically as our eyes and brains are not set up for this.  If I try to focus vertically, it is hard to see the focus patch and hard to do.  I suspect that my eyes do not even register the focus patch as it is not something they are pre-programmed to be aware of.  Even if I succeed, it is easier and faster to focus horizontally and then rotate the camera vertically to compose.  I would love to hear if there is anyone who finds it as easy to focus vertically as horizontally.

[sergiomarried]

Thanks all for adding to the topic your thoughts and suggestions. To be honest, I feel that understanding and mastering the RF Mechanism is paramount as it is such a key part in the process of making a photograph. One of the other things I’ve been struggling lately and giving a lot of thought has to do with the 35mm frame lines... Do you get to see the whole frame easily? I don’t use glasses, have pretty good sights and I really find difficult seeing the whole 35mm frame  at once easily... I know how you position the camera to your eye makes a lot of difference, up, down... am I missing something key in the technique or is this a common topic? I’d love to being able to accurately frame my shots, especially in the borders... any tips? 

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Hallo,

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[a.noctilux]

👍 Hey You,

this must be the answer to the "problem".

Now that you say it, I remember that this is my prefered process for M " focus horizontally, move to vertical for the pic".

 

Sergio, try to NOT looking at frame lines,but look straight to have the lines in the field "blur" as guide (a bit of practicing).

I don't try to frame tight with Leica M, but "loose in the safe side" mostly.

Edited September 16, 2020 by a.noctilux