Rumour about a new M6 '1984' from Leica

[adan]

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12 minutes ago, colint544 said:

Bit niche, I know, but does anyone know why the film advance lever on the M6 is skinnier than the fat one on the original M4?

That change occured with the revival of the M4 as the M4-2 - on which the M4-P and M6 were then based. Leitz Canada probably just figured the original was "overengineered" for the actual stresses involved, and likely saved a few ¢¢ per camera using a bit less metal. But I wouldn't argue with the "comfort" theory.....

As to the price of an M6 in the mid-1980s:

- In 1986 the price of the M4-P without meter was US $898 and the M6 was US $1695 (NB: some US mail-order stores told people to "Call" for the M6 price - which means it was likely available for less, but they could not print anything less than the MAP of $1695, or face Leica's wrath).

https://leicarumors.com/2011/04/10/leica-prices-from-25-years-ago.aspx/

- In 2001 or so, a brand-new plain-vanilla M6 was US $1995 (plus tax), occasionally discounted 10% to $1795 at "Leica Day" store events. Those numbers were burned into my brain as I considered buying one back then.

In any event, a revived M6 (if real) is unlikely to be that cheap now. As a special edition, it will be at least as expensive as a new MP, if not more. The costs won't be significantly less.

Now, if it comes with a "special-edition" Leitz/Leica 35mm Summicron v.4, that would be interesting....

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, adan said:

That change occured with the revival of the M4 as the M4-2 - on which the M4-P and M6 were then based. Leitz Canada probably just figured the original was "overengineered" for the actual stresses involved, and likely saved a few ¢¢ per camera using a bit less metal. But I wouldn't argue with the "comfort" theory.....

As to the price of an M6 in the mid-1980s:

- In 1986 the price of the M4-P without meter was US $898 and the M6 was US $1695 (NB: some US mail-order stores told people to "Call" for the M6 price - which means it was likely available for less, but they could not print anything less than the MAP of $1695, or face Leica's wrath).

https://leicarumors.com/2011/04/10/leica-prices-from-25-years-ago.aspx/

- In 2001 or so, a brand-new plain-vanilla M6 was US $1995 (plus tax), occasionally discounted 10% to $1795 at "Leica Day" store events. Those numbers were burned into my brain as I considered buying one back then.

In any event, a revived M6 (if real) is unlikely to be that cheap now. As a special edition, it will be at least as expensive as a new MP, if not more. The costs won't be significantly less.

Now, if it comes with a "special-edition" Leitz/Leica 35mm Summicron v.4, that would be interesting....

I'm still not sure what a 'new' M6 would really mean.  I have to assume it would have the MP finder/framelines, MP meter, etc.  So it would be an MP with the M6-style rewind knob and 'M6' label on the front?  Not sure I really get the point, but I'm not a collector so it may be lost on me.  

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[andrew01]

If they are just going to recommence M6 production that’s great, but if they are going to market this as some sort of special edition at a silly price I don’t see the point.  Just buy a mint M6 on the used market for a fraction of the price.  

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

....but if they are going to market this as some sort of special edition at a silly price I don’t see the point.   

The point would be, just as with all Leica special editions, to make money for the company.  So far there seems to be no shortage of willing special edition buyers, but Leica can gauge that market best. 
 

Jeff

[andrew01]

53 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The point would be, just as with all Leica special editions, to make money for the company.  So far there seems to be no shortage of willing special edition buyers, but Leica can gauge that market best. 
 

Jeff

I was thinking about it from the point of view of someone wanting a nice M6 to shoot with, but yes I suppose you are right about the collector market.  All Leica needs to do is add a bit of engraving and the price doubles so I can see why they keep milking it.  I find it a bit tacky, much like the special edition Omega Speedmasters that come out every 6 months.

[BradS]

8 hours ago, logan2z said:

That's true. When I first got into Leica cameras a few years ago the M6 seemed to be considered an inferior option to the M2/M3/M4, but that seems to have changed.   I'm guessing it's the 'modern' M features like a meter and complete frameline set that have made it popular with new film shooters in the last couple of years and caused it's price to skyrocket into the $3500 range.  I'd personally start to think about a used MP at that point. 

I have an M2, an M4-P and an M6. For me, the meter in the M6 makes all the difference....but I'm a user,  not a collector.

[FrozenInTime]

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1 hour ago, andrew01 said:

If they are just going to recommence M6 production that’s great, but if they are going to market this as some sort of special edition at a silly price I don’t see the point.  Just buy a mint M6 on the used market for a fraction of the price.  

That fraction is now approaching 1/2 .... for a 25 year old camera with brittle flex-circuit boards with wiper contacts that won’t last forever.

[Jeff S]

16 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

I was thinking about it from the point of view of someone wanting a nice M6 to shoot with, but yes I suppose you are right about the collector market.  All Leica needs to do is add a bit of engraving and the price doubles so I can see why they keep milking it.  I find it a bit tacky, much like the special edition Omega Speedmasters that come out every 6 months.

Profits for Leica means they stay alive longer in a dismal camera market so that you and others can still get the gear and service you like.  Be happy.

Jeff

[logan2z]

18 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

That fraction is now approaching 1/2

It appears to be more than 1/2, given what I've been seeing lately. And if the meter has been a reason for buying an M6 but Leica can no longer repair it, then stretching one's budget for the MP would seem to make even more sense. 

[adan]

In 1994, Leica sold the M6J - a 40th-anniversary M6 with the cosmetics of an M3. It was also when they reintroduced the 50mm collapsible f/2.8 Elmar (for about a decade, until the 50 Summarit arrived). But otherwise a bog-standard production M6 inside. Even kept the tilted rewind.

https://www.cameraquest.com/leicam6j.htm

As far as I can tell, this "1984 M6" will be a bog-standard MP inside, except minus the script engraving and plus the crank rewind. With the same parts (except the crank) as the MP - and thus just as long a lifespan.

My take is this - believe it or not, there are people who want a brand-new film Leica M, but don't especially like the nostalgic 1950s "antiquity" of the MP/M-A. It isn't their price that is a problem (necessarily), it is the throwback dis-functionality and pointless "cuteness." Now that the M7 is no longer an "available-new" option, this is how they can get that, with the benefits of new construction, modern parts, and factory-fresh warranty and longevity (and unlike the M7, a bit smaller size, and very little dependence on batteries).

An "anti-special-edition," in the same way that Robert Mitchum or "The Man With No Name" were "anti-heroes."

[logan2z]

32 minutes ago, adan said:

My take is this - believe it or not, there are people who want a brand-new film Leica M, but don't especially like the nostalgic 1950s "antiquity" of the MP/M-A. It isn't their price that is a problem (necessarily), it is the throwback dis-functionality and pointless "cuteness."

I guess I can understand that - despite apparently being a sucker for 1950s antiquity and pointless cuteness 

[Charles Morgan]

The words Leica M6 and Special Edition fill me with foreboding. To date that has meant dubious finishes and jaw-dropping prices.

A plain MP with different engraving in the style of an M6 may well have some appeal, although I am entirely agnostic about rewind systems or other things. I did not like my M6, the contrast in quality with my M3 always led me to favour the latter. Given where M6 prices have gone, my only regret is disposing of it too prematurely, but if Leica can bring out one at a suitably non-challenging premium over a used M6 I'd be glad to see them benefit. However, that Special Edition wording causes me some doubt.

If, of course, there is any foundation to the rumours!

[wattsy]

As others have indicated, an MP in M6 guise (black chrome with slanted rewind, etc.) is 'just' an MP by another name. To be truly faithful to the old workhorse M6, Leica should obtain some zinc top plates – preferably without corrosion pockmarks – and revert to the often claimed "inferior" gearing and flare prone VF that the M6 had.  The "1980s" style angular plastic box and old packaging wouldn't go amiss either if it is to be a proper retro edition.😀

[a.noctilux]

I hope for this New M6, but may not (as I stated in early post) buy them if/when available.

For something that would be MP ( mainly with electronic metering circuit ) that I got rid of many years ago "replacing" with M-A .

Metering means less complete frame lines (I know that is kind of non'sense ) but when I compare M6/M-A VF, that red LED in VF still bother me (strange enough, not when I used to it years ago, and thousands of pics).

For years, I'm used to M-A's VF/frame lines (even with the rewind knob/metallic lever wind at last not that bad), so I'll keep the money for travel ( if we can ) or what else.

Time moves so quickly, when I think that M-A dated from 2014 !

 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by a.noctilux

[atournas]

I own both, the classic M6 and the MP. If I were to choose between the two today, I would without hesitation go for the MP. The improvements imposed on the latter over the classic M6 are impressive, being more efficient photographically as well as more robust. Leica knows that and so it is reasonable to expect an MP with the M6 advance and rewind levers.

I'm curious what they will decide about the ISO dial on the back, though.

Edited September 16, 2020 by atournas

[m410]

As far as I am concerned ALL the M6's have already been built and I had two of those workhorse durable cameras.  They were great.

What I would like to see is Leica putting their production efforts into their current cameras that they state as being offered.   The current M10-R, SL2, Q2 et al and many lenses are announced but the wait can be many months or even a year.  I don't care for this business model.

[derleicaman]

On 9/14/2020 at 12:13 PM, adan said:

That change occured with the revival of the M4 as the M4-2 - on which the M4-P and M6 were then based. Leitz Canada probably just figured the original was "overengineered" for the actual stresses involved, and likely saved a few ¢¢ per camera using a bit less metal. But I wouldn't argue with the "comfort" theory.....

As to the price of an M6 in the mid-1980s:

- In 1986 the price of the M4-P without meter was US $898 and the M6 was US $1695 (NB: some US mail-order stores told people to "Call" for the M6 price - which means it was likely available for less, but they could not print anything less than the MAP of $1695, or face Leica's wrath).

https://leicarumors.com/2011/04/10/leica-prices-from-25-years-ago.aspx/

- In 2001 or so, a brand-new plain-vanilla M6 was US $1995 (plus tax), occasionally discounted 10% to $1795 at "Leica Day" store events. Those numbers were burned into my brain as I considered buying one back then.

In any event, a revived M6 (if real) is unlikely to be that cheap now. As a special edition, it will be at least as expensive as a new MP, if not more. The costs won't be significantly less.

Now, if it comes with a "special-edition" Leitz/Leica 35mm Summicron v.4, that would be interesting....

I was at Photokina for the intro of the M6 in 1984. I was a Leica dealer then, and I got one of the first demo cameras after I returned home to the States. I used that camera for almost 20 years and I still have it. Stefan Daniel confirmed that my camera was one of the Photokina demo cameras. I used another M6 and later my M6TTL professionally for years and they never missed a beat. I sold the M6 for $ 1,200 every day of the week in 1984-85. MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) was the lowest you could advertise a Leica item, but you were free to sell at whatever price you wanted to. The idea was to sell the M6 for a similar price to an M4-P with Leicameter MR-4 combination.

However, the circuit board in the M6 was its Achilles heal. The originals were done by an Italian firm, Olivetti I think, and they were not very robust. The new MP is a vastly improved camera in every way, including the circuit board.

You can easily put and M6 style advance lever on any previous M camera. I had one on my M2 for years, very easy to do. I agree with the rewind knob being a PITA. The M4 and later rewind crank  was much better when you were shooting a lot. I used the Leica Motor M doing jobs and it worked out fairly well. I also used the Leicavit MP and Tom A's Rapidwinder. Little things like this made a big difference when you were shooting a job, and 36 exposures went by quick and you always ran out of film at the worst moment. I always used 2-3 M cameras on a job. I looked like Jim Marshall!

It would be very easy to put the rewind crank on an MP instead of the knob for Leica.

 

[derleicaman]

On 9/16/2020 at 1:03 PM, m410 said:

As far as I am concerned ALL the M6's have already been built and I had two of those workhorse durable cameras.  They were great.

What I would like to see is Leica putting their production efforts into their current cameras that they state as being offered.   The current M10-R, SL2, Q2 et al and many lenses are announced but the wait can be many months or even a year.  I don't care for this business model.

Good luck with improving this. When I was an active dealer, this was always a complaint. Wetzlar even vowed several times to do something about this, but the more things change, the more they stay the same!

 

[derleicaman]

On 9/15/2020 at 4:07 AM, wattsy said:

As others have indicated, an MP in M6 guise (black chrome with slanted rewind, etc.) is 'just' an MP by another name. To be truly faithful to the old workhorse M6, Leica should obtain some zinc top plates – preferably without corrosion pockmarks – and revert to the often claimed "inferior" gearing and flare prone VF that the M6 had.  The "1980s" style angular plastic box and old packaging wouldn't go amiss either if it is to be a proper retro edition.😀

The zinc top plates were a cost cutting measure and a total abomination. They went to this, because all of the tooling for the deep drawn brass top plates were worn out, and it would have cost too much to invest in new tool and dies. When we were discussing doing the Black Paint M6 for the LHSA, the top plate had to be brass. That's why it took almost 4 years to go from idea to reality for this camera. Over that time, Leica went to CNC machined top plates to do this. Then they had to get black lacquer right, but that is another story all together. I still have my test top plates from the prototype phase, and even the final product was not up to the standards they later achieved with the original M2, M3 and M4 cameras and even the M9. Leica had forgotten how to do paint, and farmed this out to a firm in Austria for the LHSA Black Paint TTL and Millenium Edition.

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[wattsy]

On 10/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, derleicaman said:

not up to the standards they later achieved with the original M2, M3 and M4 cameras and even the M9. Leica had forgotten how to do paint, and farmed this out to a firm in Austria for the LHSA Black Paint TTL and Millenium Edition.

That's interesting and a good example of how knowledge and expertise can be lost within a company. Did Leica also outsource the paint job for the 0-serie replica because that seems to be very well done?