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70 Year Wait For Images From FILCA Cassette


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vor 9 Stunden schrieb willeica:

I think that this is correct. It was changed to Cunard White Star and the police stand changed at around the same time. The photos of the Swiss winner of the Giro d'Italia taken in July 1950 seem to have been taken from the balcony above that sign, which balcony also carried the word 'Hotel ' at one stage.

William

That picture was surely taken from the Hotel Schweizerhof, and the angle suggests it was just about the height of the Hotel sign. But that doesnt help much with the date of the picture we have.

I have not seen a single picture yet of that triple advertising board in any of the archive pictures. Seen a single one, or seen nothing at all. So that was obviously not long in that place. And the same with the guard rails below. In the 1950 picture https://www.bygonely.com/bg_item/zurich-station-square-bahnhofstrasse-circa-1950/ it does not exist. Whereas the guard rail has already been constructed in https://www.bygonely.com/bg_item/zurich-main-station-1952/ but there is only a single advertising board. However another source is crediting the 1950 picture to 1944 and one to 1942. It's all confusing and I haven't made a good step forward so far.

Thomas
--

Btw. I tried Focus Magic, but at least I had not got results more helpful than before.

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20 minutes ago, tomtschi said:

That picture was surely taken from the Hotel Schweizerhof, and the angle suggests it was just about the height of the Hotel sign. But that doesnt help much with the date of the picture we have.

I have not seen a single picture yet of that triple advertising board in any of the archive pictures. Seen a single one, or seen nothing at all. So that was obviously not long in that place. And the same with the guard rails below. In the 1950 picture https://www.bygonely.com/bg_item/zurich-station-square-bahnhofstrasse-circa-1950/ it does not exist. Whereas the guard rail has already been constructed in https://www.bygonely.com/bg_item/zurich-main-station-1952/ but there is only a single advertising board. However another source is crediting the 1950 picture to 1944 and one to 1942. It's all confusing and I haven't made a good step forward so far.

Thomas
--

Btw. I tried Focus Magic, but at least I had not got results more helpful than before.

Here is the triple board from one of photos of the July 1950 welcome for the Swiss Giro d'Italia winner, It is on the left middle top in this photo.

Other photos are here.

https://www.gettyimages.ae/photos/reception-of-the-swiss-cyclists-from-the-giro-ditalia-zurich-1950?family=editorial&phrase=Reception of the swiss cyclists from the Giro d'Italia, Zurich 1950&sort=mostpopular#license

I am doing a sequence of the journey, identifying the locations with the frame numbers on the roll of negatives and I will also mark up some maps. The journey was divided into logical hops of circa 100 kms. I will put links here and on Macfilos as the amount of material would be too much for posting here. I may get it done tomorrow. I also found two unscanned frames; one was on the road into St Moritz and the other was just an underexposed view of Lake Como.

William

 

Edited by willeica
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vor 6 Stunden schrieb willeica:

Here is the triple board from one of photos of the July 1950

The triple board shows even the same advert. I can't quite recognize what it shows, but it seems to be a view to a scene beyond three dark silhouettes.

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Featured in today’s Times (the “proper” one) after the previous NYT piece....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/race-develops-to-identify-couple-in-70-year-old-holiday-snaps-72vmtffhf?shareToken=46f597f4fb70fd83f40b20e245bd694f

Although I have nothing to contribute to the discussions it is certainly fascinating to follow the chase. 

 

Edited by NigelG
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16 hours ago, wizard said:

I find it interesting that in order to duplicate your 1962 picture you have used a camera and lens that could have been used to take the original picture back in 1962 🙂. Of course I know that most of us could not afford a Leica IIIg and Summicron collapsible back then, and I for one would have only barely been able to hold a camera anyway. However, my father at that time DID use a Leica IIIf and collapsible Elmar lens.

Cheers, Andy

Thank you Andy for that interesting observation, which I never thought of when I wandered around Rome and revisited some scenes from my 1962 visit. My father always said he couldn't quite afford a Leica back then, and he was happy enough using his FOCA Universel c1954 and Bolex D8LA for pictures and movies. Both produced excellent results. I found that some parts of Rome had changed after 50 years, such as the site of the Circus Maximus. Other sites are timeless, almost identical. One of Europe's great cities 😀.

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12 hours ago, NigelG said:

Featured in today’s Times (the “proper” one) after the previous NYT piece....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/race-develops-to-identify-couple-in-70-year-old-holiday-snaps-72vmtffhf?shareToken=46f597f4fb70fd83f40b20e245bd694f

Although I have nothing to contribute to the discussions it is certainly fascinating to follow the chase. 

 

Thanks Nigel. It still has not hit 'The Sun on which the Empire never sets', thank God. The idea of putting out this story was and still is to find the families of the people in the photos and to give them some nice black and white prints. Up to the beginning of last week the original story on Macfilos had about 4,000 reads. Then my friend and fellow Leica Society member, Phil Coomes, BBC Picture Editor, put it on the on the BBC website and as of tonight my article has had almost 37,000 reads in its original format . The BBC version had 2 million hits at the end of last week and that has probably reached 4 or 5 million as it has since been in/on The New York Times, The Irish Times, The London Times, The Mail Online, CNN Travel, Swiss, German and Italian newspapers, including Corriere della Sera, Swiss TV and many others. We still have no clear leads, although many suggestions have been made. The story has turned up some interesting issues about 'photographic archaeology', but my goal still remains the same. I might add that it has raised the profile of Leica among many people who may not have previously been familiar with the brand.

21 hours ago, tomtschi said:

That picture was surely taken from the Hotel Schweizerhof, and the angle suggests it was just about the height of the Hotel sign. But that doesnt help much with the date of the picture we have.

I have not seen a single picture yet of that triple advertising board in any of the archive pictures. Seen a single one, or seen nothing at all. So that was obviously not long in that place. And the same with the guard rails below. In the 1950 picture https://www.bygonely.com/bg_item/zurich-station-square-bahnhofstrasse-circa-1950/ it does not exist. Whereas the guard rail has already been constructed in https://www.bygonely.com/bg_item/zurich-main-station-1952/ but there is only a single advertising board. However another source is crediting the 1950 picture to 1944 and one to 1942. It's all confusing and I haven't made a good step forward so far.

Thomas
--

Btw. I tried Focus Magic, but at least I had not got results more helpful than before.

Getting back to more practical issues, I believe that the triple notice board probably contained maps of Zurich on both sides in the 3 official Swiss languages, German, French and Italian.

It was there in July 1950 for the reception of the Swiss winner of the Giro D'Italia and it was also there when the couple on the roll of film, featured in my article, commenced their trip.

12 hours ago, ironringer said:

Thank you Andy for that interesting observation, which I never thought of when I wandered around Rome and revisited some scenes from my 1962 visit. My father always said he couldn't quite afford a Leica back then, and he was happy enough using his FOCA Universel c1954 and Bolex D8LA for pictures and movies. Both produced excellent results. I found that some parts of Rome had changed after 50 years, such as the site of the Circus Maximus. Other sites are timeless, almost identical. One of Europe's great cities 😀.

I can't remember if I posted this before, but I have a Leica II Model D which is engraved with a dealer's name from Grafton Street in Dublin. Last year I used it to take a photo of same building from which it had been sold in 1932, 87 years earlier. The dealer, who was mainly an optician, has long since gone out of business.

William 

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Hello,

went through lots of stuff now. Here a consumption:

Here a picture from May 1952:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/may-day-demonstration-on-bahnhofplatz-in-zurich-1952-news-photo/1173802045

The board with the three pictures isn't there anymore.  

 

Here a picture that is taken on June, 1st 1950:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/zurich-bahnhofplatz-around-1950-zurich-bahnhofplatz-around-news-photo/1173943359

The place where the car was parked seemed to be under construction at this time.


Here one from 2nd of April 1952:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/bahnhofplatz-news-photo/1173854908

Here a newer type of the tram appeared.


Here in 5 June 1947 the old barrel and the writing Reisebureau is still there:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/bahnhofplatz-and-bahnhofstrasse-in-z%C3%BCrich-1947-news-photo/1173846395

 

Here 18.3.1948 the pole with the chain are missing:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/the-swinging-peters-sisters-arriving-in-zurich-1948-news-photo/1174207376


This is from 31.7.1951, but it doesn't helped much. Maybe someone else find something in here:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/zurich-celebrates-the-champion-hugo-koblet-tour-de-france-news-photo/1173943812

 

Here one from 15.11.1951, nearly made from the spot where the original was taken. The writing Hotel is clear to see. No leaves at the trees anymore:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/road-traffic-in-zurich-1951-news-photo/1174190878

 

Here one picture that is dated with 1950 but without an exact date. The board is different and the writing Hotel is there:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/BAZ/index2.php?id=BAZ_BAZ_054740.tiff

 

This on from 1949 is quite exciting. In the upper right corner you can see the barrel unstriped.

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-0499-0016

 

These are dated ca. 1947, but I guess it must be later. The barrel is already in the new version.

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-1081-0006

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-1081-0013

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M02-0066-0001

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M02-0066-0005

 

This is from 25.8.1947. No chains installed:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_LBS_H1-010029

 

Ca . 1949 in the upper left corner. Not sure if the Hotel writing is there.

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-0499-0006

 

7.6.1948 In the middle a bit left. Seemed that the barrel with stripes is gone and the new one is there:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_LBS_H1-010519-AL

23.6.1949 Would be perfect, but a bit to unsharp. Outer left. Not sure if the advertising is in the wide version here:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_LBS_H1-012125

 

After seeing all this I woulds guess the journey took place sometimes between 1949-1951.

Regards

Frank

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4 hours ago, fotomas said:

Hello,

went through lots of stuff now. Here a consumption:

Here a picture from May 1952:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/may-day-demonstration-on-bahnhofplatz-in-zurich-1952-news-photo/1173802045

The board with the three pictures isn't there anymore.  

 

Here a picture that is taken on June, 1st 1950:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/zurich-bahnhofplatz-around-1950-zurich-bahnhofplatz-around-news-photo/1173943359

The place where the car was parked seemed to be under construction at this time.


Here one from 2nd of April 1952:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/bahnhofplatz-news-photo/1173854908

Here a newer type of the tram appeared.


Here in 5 June 1947 the old barrel and the writing Reisebureau is still there:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/bahnhofplatz-and-bahnhofstrasse-in-z%C3%BCrich-1947-news-photo/1173846395

 

Here 18.3.1948 the pole with the chain are missing:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/the-swinging-peters-sisters-arriving-in-zurich-1948-news-photo/1174207376


This is from 31.7.1951, but it doesn't helped much. Maybe someone else find something in here:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/zurich-celebrates-the-champion-hugo-koblet-tour-de-france-news-photo/1173943812

 

Here one from 15.11.1951, nearly made from the spot where the original was taken. The writing Hotel is clear to see. No leaves at the trees anymore:

https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/road-traffic-in-zurich-1951-news-photo/1174190878

 

Here one picture that is dated with 1950 but without an exact date. The board is different and the writing Hotel is there:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/BAZ/index2.php?id=BAZ_BAZ_054740.tiff

 

This on from 1949 is quite exciting. In the upper right corner you can see the barrel unstriped.

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-0499-0016

 

These are dated ca. 1947, but I guess it must be later. The barrel is already in the new version.

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-1081-0006

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-1081-0013

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M02-0066-0001

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M02-0066-0005

 

This is from 25.8.1947. No chains installed:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_LBS_H1-010029

 

Ca . 1949 in the upper left corner. Not sure if the Hotel writing is there.

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Com_M01-0499-0006

 

7.6.1948 In the middle a bit left. Seemed that the barrel with stripes is gone and the new one is there:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_LBS_H1-010519-AL

23.6.1949 Would be perfect, but a bit to unsharp. Outer left. Not sure if the advertising is in the wide version here:

http://viewer.e-pics.ethz.ch/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/index2.php?id=ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_LBS_H1-012125

 

After seeing all this I woulds guess the journey took place sometimes between 1949-1951.

Regards

Frank

Thanks Frank. That is a huge amount of work. Some of the photos were taken from quite a distance away. I had originally thought that the trip had taken place in 1952, but now it seems to have been earlier, 1951 at the latest and it could have been as early as 1949. The Hotel sign may have been taken down for cleaning and replacement. The triple board is also a factor along with the policemen's box. I think that some of the dates on these photos are approximate but the May Day demonstration and the visit of the Swinging Peters Sisters can be confirmed.

I need some time to sort out this complex jigsaw puzzle, but if you get any more thoughts please let me know.

William

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/25/2020 at 10:26 AM, jaapv said:

You probably can read the sign using Focus Magic.

Thanks Jaap. The article (as reported) has also appeared in Italian and Danish and goes into Portuguese (in Brazil) and Japanese next. 

https://www.corriere.it/esteri/20_dicembre_08/mistero-fotografico-che-appassiona-l-europa-chi-donna-il-bassotto-viaggio-lago-como-834891be-3986-11eb-97f0-6f118c19c928.shtml

https://nyheder.tv2.dk/2020-12-23-en-gammel-filmrulle-blev-fremkaldt-og-saa-begyndte-jagten-paa-mysteriet-bag-billederne

5 million plus hits already and we still have not identified the couple, but the search will go on. We have a lot of avenues still to explore. It may be the case that the families of the people will not want their relatives identified and I will abide by that. We have been told that Wetzlar is watching the story which has raised the profile of the Leica brand worldwide. Leica friends are already reporting enquiries from other friends about 'these Leica cameras'. 

William 

 

 

Edited by willeica
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Thank you William for this huge investigation! Very impressive.

Maybe it is not worth much, but I found frame 10 with the car from the side interesting.
I don't know anything about these pre war car's, but I did a little search. 
Possibly the car could be a former military car. The shape of the aft car wing is different and the range of spring is much greater then it looks like on all pictures I found from civil versions. Also the profile from the backup tire looks more for off road purpose and the longer shape of the headlights  I saw only in the military version, until now. But I'm not an expert on this. Just guessing.


Her a few links with examples. But it also looks like there where dozens of different version of the 315 around, each looking slightly different.
If it is reused it could be also mixed up with parts from other cars. Probably not uncommon to reuse stuff like this in Germany shortly after WW II, I think.

BMW 315 Cabrio:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/media/e283a66c-4b40-4090-bc7a-7fcd406ad9f4/web;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?pfdrid_c=false&uid=7e470316-4da0-4fcd-a480-a53e9742cd44

BMW 303 Cabrio:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/media/388c9010-c23f-4c4f-b9db-13c32c5faf39/web;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?pfdrid_c=false&uid=8d214879-4530-4468-a9e6-33fe791d3f6a

BMW 351 Kübelwagen:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/detail/index.xhtml;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?id=691049

https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/media/6a5f70a9-afd6-4e18-9897-36ba9cc83ce7/web;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?pfdrid_c=false&uid=3a69dfab-1d21-4b8b-aa37-d18230990a68

BMW 315 Tourenwagen:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/detail/index.xhtml;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?id=773807

 

Best regards 

Frank

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Frame 10 is really interesting. Watch the shadow of the door pull.

If I measure this, the sun's altitude must be around 69.2°.

But with an estimated position of Lat: 46° 20,028 N , Lon: 9° 31,506 E the sun never get's this high. We don't know if the camera or parking ground was in level. So there is at least a tolerance from ca. 2°.

Highest sun's altitude in 1950 there is 67,06° and this only took place between 20.6.1950 - 23.6.1950 at noon. Didn't make a calculation for 1949, but I guess it would be similar.
So my guess is, that the picture was probably taken around these days.

Best regards

Frank

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2 hours ago, fotomas said:

Thank you William for this huge investigation! Very impressive.

Maybe it is not worth much, but I found frame 10 with the car from the side interesting.
I don't know anything about these pre war car's, but I did a little search. 
Possibly the car could be a former military car. The shape of the aft car wing is different and the range of spring is much greater then it looks like on all pictures I found from civil versions. Also the profile from the backup tire looks more for off road purpose and the longer shape of the headlights  I saw only in the military version, until now. But I'm not an expert on this. Just guessing.


Her a few links with examples. But it also looks like there where dozens of different version of the 315 around, each looking slightly different.
If it is reused it could be also mixed up with parts from other cars. Probably not uncommon to reuse stuff like this in Germany shortly after WW II, I think.

BMW 315 Cabrio:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/media/e283a66c-4b40-4090-bc7a-7fcd406ad9f4/web;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?pfdrid_c=false&uid=7e470316-4da0-4fcd-a480-a53e9742cd44

BMW 303 Cabrio:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/media/388c9010-c23f-4c4f-b9db-13c32c5faf39/web;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?pfdrid_c=false&uid=8d214879-4530-4468-a9e6-33fe791d3f6a

BMW 351 Kübelwagen:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/detail/index.xhtml;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?id=691049

https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/media/6a5f70a9-afd6-4e18-9897-36ba9cc83ce7/web;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?pfdrid_c=false&uid=3a69dfab-1d21-4b8b-aa37-d18230990a68

BMW 315 Tourenwagen:
https://bmw-grouparchiv.de/research/detail/index.xhtml;jsessionid=ed8f962e7b191ec6c27b1593fc3c.1?id=773807

 

Best regards 

Frank

Thanks Frank. We are fairly certain that this was a 2 seater BMW 315 Cabriolet with special bodywork by Reutter. While the Tourenwagen seems to have the same bonnet louvres, it is a larger car with 4 seats.

57 minutes ago, fotomas said:

Frame 10 is really interesting. Watch the shadow of the door pull.

If I measure this, the sun's altitude must be around 69.2°.

But with an estimated position of Lat: 46° 20,028 N , Lon: 9° 31,506 E the sun never get's this high. We don't know if the camera or parking ground was in level. So there is at least a tolerance from ca. 2°.

Highest sun's altitude in 1950 there is 67,06° and this only took place between 20.6.1950 - 23.6.1950 at noon. Didn't make a calculation for 1949, but I guess it would be similar.
So my guess is, that the picture was probably taken around these days.

Best regards

Frank

Thanks, Frank. That is very interesting. Would that angle be affected to any significant degree by the altitude of the car?  Certainly Bahnhofplatz in Zurich was more or less in the same state at the start of this trip as it was for the reception for the Swiss winner of the 1950 Giro d'Italia which took place in mid-June 1950 eg the distinctive posters for the Juni-Festwoche 1950, which took place in June 1950, are to be seen in both photographs. I had thought that because of the amount of snow visible on the Julier Pass that the trip might have taken place a month earlier in May 1950 and that the posters for the Festwoche had been put up in advance of its commencement on 4 June 1950. Photographic 'detective work' over a 70 year gap has, by its nature, to be slow and painstaking and all constructive contributions are most welcome.

William

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb willeica:

Thanks Frank. We are fairly certain that this was a 2 seater BMW 315 Cabriolet with special bodywork by Reutter. While the Tourenwagen seems to have the same bonnet louvres, it is a larger car with 4 seats.

Thanks, Frank. That is very interesting. Would that angle be affected to any significant degree by the altitude of the car?  Certainly Bahnhofplatz in Zurich was more or less in the same state at the start of this trip as it was for the reception for the Swiss winner of the 1950 Giro d'Italia which took place in mid-June 1950 eg the distinctive posters for the Juni-Festwoche 1950, which took place in June 1950, are to be seen in both photographs. I had thought that because of the amount of snow visible on the Julier Pass that the trip might have taken place a month earlier in May 1950 and that the posters for the Festwoche had been put up in advance of its commencement on 4 June 1950. Photographic 'detective work' over a 70 year gap has, by its nature, to be slow and painstaking and all constructive contributions are most welcome.

William

For the car have a look at the Kübelwagen

The posters of the Juni-Festwoche 1950 are the deciding found. Now we are sure that it took place in 1950. The posters from 1949 and 1951 looked different.

For the sun I guess that the hight will not have significant effect, and if the the angle would be lower but we need a greater angle. There are some imponderables here.
I would guess that the camera is not perfectly in level. If I rotate to get the tires straight in the picture I get 0.7 ° in addition, would be 67.06 + 0,7 = 67.76. The refraction of the light in the atmosphere increase the angle also. But how much you can only guess. Normally this should be only around 1.8 ". The parking area can also be not in level, but since the trees in the picture looked pretty upright I guess this can only be around 1 or 2 °. Without correction I measured 69.2° from the picture and with a tolerance of 2-3° this is in reach to the peak of the sun with 67.06°.

The maximum high of the sun for other dates are 5.6.1950 - 66°10' and for example 5.5.1950 - 59°49'. For me that seemed way to low to get an angle like in the picture.

Here the angle of the sun for the 21.6.1950

Frank

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You guys are discovering awesome stuff 🙂

I dont understand anything (technically) how the sun can be calculated, but could the altitude of the car make a difference in that calculation? Zurich is at 408 meters above sea level, the highest point between St. Moritz and Menaggio is the Malojapass at 1815 meters.

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Am 13.12.2020 um 19:41 schrieb fotomas:

Here a newer type of the tram appeared.

Unfortunately, the tram type will not be of much help here. The Verkehrsbetriebe Zürich (VBZ) had several types of trams in use at the same time. It appears that no new types had been introduced into the network at the time in question. The most complete list of rolling stock I could find is here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkehrsbetriebe_Zürich (the German version) and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strassenbahn_Zürich#Ehemalige_Motorwagen_(Auswahl). There might be more complete material in sites catering to railway fanciers, but I haven't found any, so far.

Edited by pop
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vor 46 Minuten schrieb pop:

Unfortunately, the tram type will not be of much help here. The Verkehrsbetriebe Zürich (VBZ) had several types of trams in use at the same time. It appears that no new types had been introduced into the network at the time in question. The most complete list of rolling stock I could find is here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkehrsbetriebe_Zürich (the German version) and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strassenbahn_Zürich#Ehemalige_Motorwagen_(Auswahl). There might be more complete material in sites catering to railway fanciers, but I haven't found any, so far.

Yes -  the tram wont help us. But we don't need it any more.
With the posters from the Juni-Festwoche 1950 it is clear that it must be in June 1950. They are on the board on Frame 2. The posters in the years 1949 and 1951 looked different.

I assume that frame 10 and frame 11 was taken at the same location. Since the Julier pass is not on the route from St. Moritz to Menaggio and there are pictures from St. Moritz later on the film I guess that they have made day trips from St. Moritz. So frame 10 & 11 must not have been taken on the way to Menaggio. They could possibly also been made on a day trip near St. Moritz. If I follow the road to Menaggio I also couldn't find an area there what looked similar. 

One location what look a bit like in frame 11 could be at the Stazersee. Unfortunately there is no Streetview for this area and the closest photo I could find is not taken from the road, where the car possibly parked, but from the lake. The house looks similar to the building in frame 11, but must be a bit altered then. The car might have stand at the road in the red marked area. But this is only one first guess, nothing for sure.

 
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11 hours ago, fotomas said:

For the car have a look at the Kübelwagen

The posters of the Juni-Festwoche 1950 are the deciding found. Now we are sure that it took place in 1950. The posters from 1949 and 1951 looked different.

For the sun I guess that the hight will not have significant effect, and if the the angle would be lower but we need a greater angle. There are some imponderables here.
I would guess that the camera is not perfectly in level. If I rotate to get the tires straight in the picture I get 0.7 ° in addition, would be 67.06 + 0,7 = 67.76. The refraction of the light in the atmosphere increase the angle also. But how much you can only guess. Normally this should be only around 1.8 ". The parking area can also be not in level, but since the trees in the picture looked pretty upright I guess this can only be around 1 or 2 °. Without correction I measured 69.2° from the picture and with a tolerance of 2-3° this is in reach to the peak of the sun with 67.06°.

The maximum high of the sun for other dates are 5.6.1950 - 66°10' and for example 5.5.1950 - 59°49'. For me that seemed way to low to get an angle like in the picture.

Here the angle of the sun for the 21.6.1950

Frank

Thanks Frank. We had established some time ago that the posters for Festwoche 1950 were on Frame 2 and that the trip took place in the Late Spring /Early Summer of 1950, making my original lucky guesstimate of 70 years actually correct. 

Assuming that Frame 10 was taken on 21st June 1950, then Frame 2 was possibly taken on Monday 19th of June 1950. The Swiss Met office issues archive material for each year and the volume for 1950 is here https://www.meteoswiss.admin.ch/product/input/documents/annals/annalen-1950.pdf The temperature figures for Zurich are on Page 84 of this document. What concerned me were the number of people wearing overcoats in Frames 2 and 3. Monday 19th June 1950 had max and min temperatures of 27.3C and 12.9C in Zurich. There are, however, a series of photos which are dated Friday 16th June 1950 on the Getty Images site which show the welcome for winning Swiss Cyclist and Team from the 1950 Giro D'Italia. https://www.gettyimages.ae/photos/reception-of-the-swiss-cyclists-from-the-giro-ditalia-zurich-1950?family=editorial&phrase=Reception of the swiss cyclists from the Giro d'Italia, Zurich 1950&sort=mostpopular#license Some of these photos were taken in the same locations as Frames 2 and 3 and at least one features the Festwoche posters. Friday 16th June had max and min temperatures of 26.3C and 13.7 C in Zurich and, for the record, the figures for the 15th were 28.9C and 13.4C. Most of the people crowding around the cyclists were in business attire (suits etc) , but some, particularly women, were in overcoats. This might seem strange to us today in our 'dress down world' , but note also towards the end that the man wore a business suit and the woman wore a very stylish dress for a day trip on a boat from Menaggio to Bellagio. This was a long time before the tee shirt and shorts tourism of today. I still have not yet worked out why there might have been so much snow on the Julier Pass in June.

Observations on the above points are welcome. While we are getting closer to finding a date, we still do not have a positive identity for the people. I am in discussions with a number of people about relatives, but definite photographic, locational and circumstantial information is difficult to obtain with such a time span.

William

PS That house is very similar to the one on Frame 11. Is there a road with a bend where you have marked the location of the car, Frank?

Edited by willeica
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Hello William,

Yes there is a road similar to the on in the picture. This is how I found it, but I'm afraid my guess with the Stazersee is wrong. The chimney of the house is on the wrong side. First I thought it could possibly heavily altered during the years. But now I found a postcard from 1939 and even there the chimney is on the wrong side. 
But I guess frame 11 is not taken on the road from St. Moritz to Menaggio. I found no area along there which is as flat like the one in frame 11. According to the position of the sun I would think we are looking north in the picture. Maybe this is helpful for further searching.

Frank

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