Jump to content

Sensor Corrosion Analysis and Fix [Merged]


rramesh

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, BrianS said:

The M-E 220 purchased late 2016, after production had ended- may have been manufactured well before it was sold.

I do not of course know the year of manufacturing, but I would think that if it was properly stored in the camera store, or at the Leica factory/storage, it should not be any really terribly moist or damp harsh environment. Also if it was stored in its original box with silica gel in complete packaging it should have been even less possibility for corrosion.

Regardless how one try to twist and turn it, it is nevertheless really bad with sensor corrosion after such a very short time for a completely new camera!

Edited by martinot
Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, BrianS said:

The M-E 220 purchased late 2016, after production had ended- may have been manufactured well before it was sold. I've had a number of custom boards and chips made for my projects over the last decades. I've seen manufacturing defects bring down some systems, and errors in the design of chips that require revision. For what it is worth- 

 

The project manager that oversaw the glass selection should have caught this. Leica paid dearly for this design decision. Most of us were taken care of my Leica, I have both cameras with new sensors at a fraction of the cost of buying the Sensor from Digikey. Leica ended the program when ONSEMI shutdown the entire CCD production line. They are obsolete. Not even end-of-life, but completely unavailable.

An engineer wants to get the best possible performance with components selected, S8612 is optically the best performing glass from Schott for the job of cutting IR and preserving UV. The latter is important to some people, especially in the technical field. In 2009, Kodak was out of the high-end camera business and the CCD's were aimed at the scientific market. The engineers bet that the "seal" (both sides coated, as per the lexicon on the part number, new and old) selected to protect the filter would stop the corrosion. They bet, and where wrong. The Project Manager should have realized this was "iffy" at best, went against the recommended procedure from Schott for a Class 3 glass, not enough life-testing was performed, and used another glass. BG55 was reintroduced in 2011, too late for the M9 and M Monochrom. Managing engineers can be like herding cats. That's what my supervisor told me when I was new to being a manager 26 years ago. I'm glad to be "Senior Staff" and back in the Lab. Now back to debugging the latest board made for me. The last bug found required capacitors to be changed on the board. Better than herding cats.

According to my M-E 220 S/N it was one of the last made (End of 2015). It went on display in boutique mall in central Moscow.  But as this cameras were discontinued almost instantly after it went to this mall, it was sitting where unwanted. Rich people in Moscow who are visiting this mall are not buying discontinued goodies. In 2016 their local currency collapsed and they kept this camera original price.  Still no takers at boutique mall before me. It became 3K USD new M-E 220. I found it by searching local Leica dealers inventory. It was last M-E 220 in Moscow, if not in entire region. 

Did Leica make it from mickey mouse parts, I'm not sure. No evidence. Sensors were re-installed and corroded in previously purchased, repaired M9 in 2015.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

My take on all this- I'll be looking for an M Monochrom with corroded glass at a good price so I can finally get the camera that I wanted in 2009.

M9ir.

When the cover glass on my M Monochrom went bad, thought to myself if they had listened to me in the first place this would not have happened. I'd have a clear cover on it, and used a bank of filters over the lens. Also think my late run M8 with a zero-defect sensor will outlast the new sensors, less prone to cracking.

 

The M9 is my favorite camera of all time. I could pick up an M10R and M10M at anytime. The time will not be until my M9 and M Monochrom can no longer be repaired or replaced. That will be much longer thanks to repair shops that are picking up the repair on the sensors.

 

Edited by BrianS
Link to post
Share on other sites

vor 7 Stunden schrieb dllewellyn:

I have a stock color M9 and an M9 that has a repaired ICF but I also converted it to monochrome.  When I get another color M9 to repair, I will take pictures with the stock and repaired color M9 cameras so that people can compare.

Dear Dan, would you also be able to use S8612 glass - with coating, for a repair? (0.8mm) 

Link to post
Share on other sites

With the oxidization rating of that glass, not sure that would be a good idea!  With a custom White Balance and perhaps some post tweaking, I am not sure if you would be able to see a difference.  I assume with correct coatings, the S8612 glass should be sealed but not sure I would want to chance it either.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

13 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

According to my M-E 220 S/N it was one of the last made (End of 2015). It went on display in boutique mall in central Moscow.  But as this cameras were discontinued almost instantly after it went to this mall, it was sitting where unwanted. Rich people in Moscow who are visiting this mall are not buying discontinued goodies. In 2016 their local currency collapsed and they kept this camera original price.  Still no takers at boutique mall before me. It became 3K USD new M-E 220. I found it by searching local Leica dealers inventory. It was last M-E 220 in Moscow, if not in entire region. 

Did Leica make it from mickey mouse parts, I'm not sure. No evidence. Sensors were re-installed and corroded in previously purchased, repaired M9 in 2015.

Thanks for updating us about the history of the camera. 

A camera made in the end of 2015, stored in a (I assume environmentally controlled) normal camera store, and sold a year later, should not corrode after just one year later. Corrosion just two year after actual manufacturing, and just one year after being taken out of a proper camera store; that is terrible!

To at least me that is a very suspicious sign that the ICF in your camera might not had any coating at all.

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The timer for corrosion starts when the cover glass is manufactured. This was a made to order piece of glass, and was most likely ordered in fairly large batches to get a quantity discount. The sensor is then manufactured, the cover glass is part of that assembly, and the unit supplied to Leica as a part. Again, ordered in large quantity for a discount. The camera is built from parts, you would have to take the camera apart and get the lot number of the sensor to track back to the filter order to know how old the cover glass was when it started corroding.

 

Edited by BrianS
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Out working on the yard,  thinking over some engineering design decisions concerning selection of glass that did not hold up over the years.

1) Using Soft glass for the outer elements of the 5cm F2 Sonnar and Leica Summar, Summitar, Xenon, Summarit. The reason why F1.5 Sonnars hold up so well: the hard glass used for the front element.

2) Soft lens coatings

3) Zeiss using an early synthetic optical cement for their lenses instead of tried-and-true Balsam. Did not keep the glass elements held together.

4) Thorium Glass. Especially using this radioactive glass for the front element of the Summicron.

5) Canon high-index of refraction/ low dispersion glass that is etched by the lubricant of the lens outgassing.

and of course S8612 glass used in the M9, M Monochrom, and M-E 220 added to the list. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

My worst computer disaster: highly optimized code that caused a $130K "Attached Array Processor" to catch on fire. Almost 35 years ago, processing image data from the "Spot" satellite. Turned out that the power supplies for the Processor got hot after 4 days of running highly optimized code. Fortunately, the computer room was protected using Halon. No one was hurt. The boss just bought me a faster computer.

 

So whenever someone asks "what's the worst that can happen", I reply that the computer could burst into flames by running my software. But that's only happened twice.

Edited by BrianS
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Situation: Not me (I was working as a project manager, and not allowed into the facility it takes place in), but I know co workers working in a big data center in one of the mountain rooms for a big global manufacturing company. Some equipment in one of the server racks catches fire and starts to smoke badly. One of them runs for one of the fire extinguishers at the closet location. He has two choices; either a CO2 based one or powder based one. He is extremely stressed and do not think too much, and grabs the powder based fire extinguisher. Bad idea. We lost several rows with racks of computers, SAN and other network equipment for many, many millions of dollars. 

Edited by martinot
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 9/18/2020 at 12:00 PM, dllewellyn said:

I have a stock color M9 and an M9 that has a repaired ICF but I also converted it to monochrome.  When I get another color M9 to repair, I will take pictures with the stock and repaired color M9 cameras so that people can compare.

Today FedEx delivered my M9 for repair as a color M9.  Dan, please do the comparison with my camera when you get it done.  I would love for my camera to be a test lab rat.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, will do.  I will be able to compare M9 Color Stock, M9 Color Replaced ICF/Coverglass and M9 Color Converted to Monochrome with Replaced ICF/Coverglass.  If I have time, I will try to measure spectral response too though I am trying to get a backlog of regular customer orders out the door as well.  Keep in mind that my photographic skills are only slightly above average.

Edited by dllewellyn
more detail
Link to post
Share on other sites

vor 2 Minuten schrieb dllewellyn:

Yes, will do.  I will be able to compare M9 Color Stock, M9 Color Replaced ICF/Coverglass and M9 Color Converted to Monochrome with Replaced ICF/Coverglass.  If I have time, I will try to measure spectral response too though I am trying to get a backlog of regular customer orders out the door as well.  Keep in mind that my photographic skills are only slightly above average.

This is great and does not need high skills.  

I would include, if possible (mindful of your time and appreciating the effort!):

Set the camera to produce both DNG + JPG (using the Set button)

ISO 160: one nature pic, one close portrait, one architecture, one street photography  

ISO 800 and inside / lower light but no artificial lamps: one close portrait, one static scene 

ISO 1600 and 2500: lower light scenes incl. people for skin tones and noise 

B/W JPG: for portraits, street scenes: If possible to have a few additional tests after setting the camera to B/W JPGs (standard contrast, but please no effect like sepia) to test the black and white tones which are also quite famous for the M9 this would be great. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I will see what I can do.  Keep in mind that with three cameras, that means that each example means swapping the lens onto 3 different bodies.  One could easily spend a day just capturing photographs, and I have customers waiting on me for other stuff as well (not to mention dealing with vendors, A/P, A/R, accounting, pick and packing shipments, R&D, emptying the trashcans, etc).

For those familiar with the M9 RAW format, how RAW is it exactly (there is always some processing done even on RAW images so you never actually see the real RAW data off the sensor)?  Other than aperture, focus and shutter speed, are there other settings that would change a RAW file?  For JPG, what are the preferred test settings?  If there is a Leica person in the NYC/NJ area who wants to come to my building and try getting all the requested pictures, you can contact me.

For lenses, I currently have a TTArtisan 35mm F/1.4, Voigtlander Nokton 50m F/1.5, Voigtlander 75mm F/1.5 and am waiting on delivery of a Leica 50mm/F2.4, but probably won't see that lens for another week or so because it is coming from Hong Kong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody knows whether anyone would fix an oxydised M9 ICF in the EU? I would rather not send it to the States to minimize risks/turnaround time/expenses.

Alternative will to be to keep it as a luxury paperweight - I bought it like-new in box back in 2013 at a too-good-to-pass price (2500 EUR if you ask), and used it extensively for 5 years before upgrading to an M10 so I guess I more than had my money worth of pleasure out of it.

Converting it to B&W is an intriguing prospect but the upgrade is not exactly cheap and, in fact, I just go a used M Monochrom Typ 246 at another too-good-to-pass price (hardly more than what Maxmax charges for the conversion, less than what it would have cost me taking shipping and taxes into account).

Link to post
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, dllewellyn said:

I will see what I can do.  Keep in mind that with three cameras, that means that each example means swapping the lens onto 3 different bodies.  One could easily spend a day just capturing photographs, and I have customers waiting on me for other stuff as well (not to mention dealing with vendors, A/P, A/R, accounting, pick and packing shipments, R&D, emptying the trashcans, etc).

For those familiar with the M9 RAW format, how RAW is it exactly (there is always some processing done even on RAW images so you never actually see the real RAW data off the sensor)?  Other than aperture, focus and shutter speed, are there other settings that would change a RAW file?  For JPG, what are the preferred test settings?  If there is a Leica person in the NYC/NJ area who wants to come to my building and try getting all the requested pictures, you can contact me.

For lenses, I currently have a TTArtisan 35mm F/1.4, Voigtlander Nokton 50m F/1.5, Voigtlander 75mm F/1.5 and am waiting on delivery of a Leica 50mm/F2.4, but probably won't see that lens for another week or so because it is coming from Hong Kong.

There are corrections done for colour shifts and vignetting on coded lenses. It also does some noise reduction at high ISO, but less than most cameras of the era. It sets the native blackpoint a bit higher than usual at high ISO. Sandy could give you an exact rundown.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The DNG files from the M9 and M Monochrom are very close to raw. Turn off lens coding to get rid of any corrections for vignetting and color shift. 

There is also a "Debug" mode "back door"  that you can try. This produced DNG files that have no corrections applied. This includes bad pixel mapping- left out.

The sequence to enter this factory service mode with the buttons on the back of the camera is as follows:

Delete -> up (2x) -> down (4x) -> left (3x) -> right (3x) -> Info
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...