M10-P or M10-R for my first digital Leica?

[Pixeleater]

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2 hours ago, martinot said:

Most M users I know also has a DSLR and/or a mirrorless as well (often Leica SL/SL2 or Fujifilm). For a good reason.

I have an M10R which gives me much more pleasure than my DSLR with a 300mm 2.8 and 70-200 2.8. Each kit has its place in my photography but the M10 is, for me, special.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Pixeleater

[martinot]

6 hours ago, Pixeleater said:

I have an M10R which gives me much more pleasure than my DSLR with a 300mm 2.8 and 70-200 2.8. Each kit has its place in my photography but the M10 is, for me, special.

Absolutely!

Love the M cameras. Most fun and enjoyable to shoot with. Totally agree 100%.

The M10R looks to be a very nice camera (if I had to buy only a factory new full price M camera today, I think I would, probably, go for that one as well).

Edited September 11, 2020 by martinot

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[martinot]

7 hours ago, rramesh said:

Gettons, Fujis take great pictures with manual lenses. If you seek more megapixels, Fuji does have digital medium formats and have the same type of controls as what you are used to.

Leica Ms are true rangefinders and handle differently. You might need to try them out to assess suitability before jumping into a buy decision on a top-of-the line Leica M. Might be better to start with a cheaper used body and invest the savings in a good Leica lens.

Very good advice.

A used M240 or M262 can be had in good conditions with very attractive prices if one looks around a little bit. It is always wise to give priority to good optics.

Yes, I also love the Fujifilm cameras. Great mirror less cameras. Much better (very Leica-esque) user interface and controls focused on the photographic essentials. Not at all like using Sony and many other modern mirror less cameras (which often feels more like computers than camera gear).

Edited September 11, 2020 by martinot

[gettons]

13 hours ago, martinot said:

Buying some lenses can (some times) be a good investment, but normally buying a digital camera, including Leica M, i most often a loss (from a financial point of view, but great for enhancing and enjoying life).

Buy stocks and real estate for investment. Not digital cameras.

Buy cameras for shooting and enjoying. Financially it is very rarely a good investment.

Pro tip: spend more money on good lenses than you spend on digital camera bodies. 

Thanks for your valuable contribution, but I never said financial gain or investment was the main priority.

 

[gettons]

12 hours ago, rramesh said:

Gettons, Fujis take great pictures with manual lenses. If you seek more megapixels, Fuji does have digital medium formats and have the same type of controls as what you are used to.

Leica Ms are true rangefinders and handle differently. You might need to try them out to assess suitability before jumping into a buy decision on a top-of-the line Leica M. Might be better to start with a cheaper used body and invest the savings in a good Leica lens.

Yep, you can use XF lenses fully manual as well and same applies for GFX ones. Cheers

[martinot]

9 hours ago, gettons said:

Thanks for your valuable contribution, but I never said financial gain or investment was the main priority.

 

 I am glad that I miss understood you!

Buy a camera based on what you like to use or need (and within your budget), not how much you will potentially gain/lose. It is almost always a loss, and the more expensive camera you buy, usually the greater the loss is. 

All that said, Leica, and especially their M cameras usually keep their value in percentage a bit higher than most other cameras. But in absolute terms in deprecation in dollars/euros, the lost value over time is very, very high. Lenses also usually deprecates, but usually not nearly as much as cameras. Try to prioritise spending more money on good lenses in the long run (even if not now), over the camera bodies, is my general advice.

Good luck, and lets us know which M camera (and perhaps new lenses) that you go for!

Edited September 11, 2020 by martinot

[RayD28]

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There is at least one dealer that is offering a > $1,000 discount on new P's if that makes any difference.  

[Guest]

I would get the M10R and hope to god i could switch off the touch screen.

I already know you can turn off live view.

[Joe Zobkiw]

I thought I would weigh in here since I've just gone through a similar thought process.

I bought my first Leica in early 2020 after being frustrated by the complexity of Sony. I decided to go with the Q2 and am very happy with that camera. While researching Leica I kept coming across comments about Voigtlander lenses and decided I wanted to try the 35/1.4 Nokton Classic. A few months ago I bought that lens but didn't want the expense of a Leica body so I picked up the X-Pro3 and the adapter. The lens worked well although the 35 is closer to a 50 on the crop sensor. I really wanted a full-frame body to mount this lens on and the lure of Leica was strong although the X-Pro3 has it's own charms which I enjoy very much.

So, the question was - M10-R or M10-P. I felt the price difference was so close that I should just wait for the R to become available. I was resigned to that for awhile but the more I shot with the X-Pro3 I realized that the (even large) prints I was getting off of it were great. I enjoy a little grain and imperfection in my photographs. I don't want banding, mind you, but part of the magic of a lens with character (as opposed to clinical perfection) are those subtle "flaws."

This got me thinking that since I already had the Q2 (47mp) I had that in my back pocket if I ever needed super-resolution and I didn't have to chase pixels - 24mp on the M10-P would be fine for what I wanted out of the camera. So at this point the M10-P had some advantages: It was a *little* cheaper than the R, images would take up less space, battery might be better than the R, and maybe most importantly: I could get it NOW.

I happened to be looking at it on Amazon the other day and amazingly there was a $500 discount provided by Amazon - which basically made it about $1000 cheaper than the R. I went for it. I've seen that price come and go over the past few days so I don't know if it will last or if others will see it. But that sealed the deal.

So now, I have a 1 day old M10-P and I'm learning the ins and outs.The camera feels great. I'll still keep the Q2 and the X-Pro3 because they server different purposes for me and provide different inspirations. The M10-P is certainly my "slow and methodical" choice. I'll try to report back after a few months of use but I look forward to a long and fruitful relationship with this camera and the Voigtlander 35/1.4 that will live on it. For completeness, I have a Voigtlander 21mm/4 Color Skopar that essentially lives on the X-Pro3 now - great, fun lens that sits nicely between a 28mm and 35mm on the crop sensor.

Hope this helps.

PS: The Q2 was a really nice introduction to Leica for me. It pulls you into the fold without going full-on rangefinder (since it has an EVF). You can do everything manually too, so it's a best-of-both-worlds scenario. It's a great complement to the X-Pro3 also if you are looking for high resolution for less money. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Joe Zobkiw
added PS

[Steven]

On 10/8/2020 at 2:26 PM, Joe Zobkiw said:

I thought I would weigh in here since I've just gone through a similar thought process.

I bought my first Leica in early 2020 after being frustrated by the complexity of Sony. I decided to go with the Q2 and am very happy with that camera. While researching Leica I kept coming across comments about Voigtlander lenses and decided I wanted to try the 35/1.4 Nokton Classic. A few months ago I bought that lens but didn't want the expense of a Leica body so I picked up the X-Pro3 and the adapter. The lens worked well although the 35 is closer to a 50 on the crop sensor. I really wanted a full-frame body to mount this lens on and the lure of Leica was strong although the X-Pro3 has it's own charms which I enjoy very much.

So, the question was - M10-R or M10-P. I felt the price difference was so close that I should just wait for the R to become available. I was resigned to that for awhile but the more I shot with the X-Pro3 I realized that the (even large) prints I was getting off of it were great. I enjoy a little grain and imperfection in my photographs. I don't want banding, mind you, but part of the magic of a lens with character (as opposed to clinical perfection) are those subtle "flaws."

This got me thinking that since I already had the Q2 (47mp) I had that in my back pocket if I ever needed super-resolution and I didn't have to chase pixels - 24mp on the M10-P would be fine for what I wanted out of the camera. So at this point the M10-P had some advantages: It was a *little* cheaper than the R, images would take up less space, battery might be better than the R, and maybe most importantly: I could get it NOW.

I happened to be looking at it on Amazon the other day and amazingly there was a $500 discount provided by Amazon - which basically made it about $1000 cheaper than the R. I went for it. I've seen that price come and go over the past few days so I don't know if it will last or if others will see it. But that sealed the deal.

So now, I have a 1 day old M10-P and I'm learning the ins and outs.The camera feels great. I'll still keep the Q2 and the X-Pro3 because they server different purposes for me and provide different inspirations. The M10-P is certainly my "slow and methodical" choice. I'll try to report back after a few months of use but I look forward to a long and fruitful relationship with this camera and the Voigtlander 35/1.4 that will live on it. For completeness, I have a Voigtlander 21mm/4 Color Skopar that essentially lives on the X-Pro3 now - great, fun lens that sits nicely between a 28mm and 35mm on the crop sensor.

Hope this helps.

PS: The Q2 was a really nice introduction to Leica for me. It pulls you into the fold without going full-on rangefinder (since it has an EVF). You can do everything manually too, so it's a best-of-both-worlds scenario. It's a great complement to the X-Pro3 also if you are looking for high resolution for less money. 

How has it been ? 😎

[Joe Zobkiw]

14 hours ago, Steven said:

How has it been ? 😎

I’ve sold the Q2 and use the M10-P daily. It is an amazing device and never ceases to inspire me. I switch between the 35 and 50 Voigtlanders. Nice, small lenses with great character. I sold the Q2 because I simply wasn’t using it with the M available to me. The lens on the Q2 was too bulky for my taste. Great camera, but the M speaks to me more. 

[Steven]

2 minutes ago, Joe Zobkiw said:

I’ve sold the Q2 and use the M10-P daily. It is an amazing device and never ceases to inspire me. I switch between the 35 and 50 Voigtlanders. Nice, small lenses with great character. I sold the Q2 because I simply wasn’t using it with the M available to me. The lens on the Q2 was too bulky for my taste. Great camera, but the M speaks to me more. 

Sounds about right ! 
 

did you ever regret going for the P instead of the R? 

[Joe Zobkiw]

35 minutes ago, Steven said:

did you ever regret going for the P instead of the R? 

Not really. Sometimes I'll see a picture taken with the R and admire the heck out of it, but for me, the P does the trick. The way I process and the size I post, etc. works for me. I've gotten some of my favorite pics with an iPhone for goodness sake! 🙂 It's all about the content and not how many pixels are used to represent it. It's easy to forget that but it's important to remember, IMO.

[Ktsa5239]

I've sold my M10 to get the M10R last year and I have not looked back. Yes, I found that I need to push shutter speed maybe 1 or 2 stops faster at times but the results are incredible. This scene is fairly dark and I shot it at ISO5000 1/125 shutter, its still pretty clean in my opinion. In comparison, I cant really go above ISO3200 on the M10 before the image becomes unusable. 

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[gunston]

get the M8

[gunston]

life isn't ISO 50,000 or so, life is work within and breakthrough the limit.

it is you who make the photo sounds, ISO50,000 won't make your photo looks good.

i see M8, M9 and even M240 are pretty suitable for first timer.

[colonel]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:45 PM, gettons said:

Hello there,

 

I am a Fuji (X-Pro3)/Ricoh (GR III) user which shoots (not professionally) street for 90% of the times (10% being some long exposures and landscape photography). I have an M6 which I love and I am now thinking about getting a NEW digital Leica M so that I can use the same M-mount lenses and consolidate a little. Currently I have a Voigtlander 35 mm/1:1,4 Nokton VM II but I will look at other lenses in the future (28/50 Leica or not this is still to be confirmed). But the idea of having just one film camera and one digital camera with the same mount, the same ergonomics and the same characteristics (if you will), is very very attractive.

Potentially I could keep the GR3 for everyday kind of snapping tool, and have the two Leicas for a more sort of introspective and slowed down photography.

Now, besides the technicalities, I am wondering why should I go for the M10-P or the M10-R, considering the small price difference.

A few things I have been pondering on:

- I do not need a 40MB sensor.

- I may need long exsposures capabilities of the M10-R (by looking at my pictures' exif I see only in one occasion I had to use iso 1000 at 240 seconds, one at iso 100 at 240 seconds, and one 1600 iso at 30 seconds. last one being astro which is a completely different beast and I would not even try to accomplish good results with a tool like the M series. Having said that, if the camera has decent capabilities, why not?)

- I am wondering how much the M10-R battery life is impacted (for a street shooting in particular), compared to the M10-P.

- I like the discreet touch of not having the Leica red button (I can probably just hide it somehow, but I do not want to risk damaging it in case I need to sell the camera at some point).

- Would compatible lenses such as Voigtlander and Zeiss perform ok with such a big sensor the M10-R sports?

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

I made the decision that 24mp is best for street at the moment. 42mp is more susceptible to shake. I had real issues with a ARiii even with OIS. Basically you loose the benefit of the extra resolution unless you have more then 1/250. 

[gettons]

1 hour ago, colonel said:

 

I made the decision that 24mp is best for street at the moment. 42mp is more susceptible to shake. I had real issues with a ARiii even with OIS. Basically you loose the benefit of the extra resolution unless you have more then 1/250. 

I second that. The only thing is that given the small price difference between the m10-p and m10-r AND that sometimes I do take long exposures, I thought the m10-r would be the best option for me.

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, colonel said:

 

I made the decision that 24mp is best for street at the moment. 42mp is more susceptible to shake. I had real issues with a ARiii even with OIS. Basically you loose the benefit of the extra resolution unless you have more then 1/250. 

Higher res is not more susceptible to shake, you will just notice it more if you zoom in as far as you can.

The main reason to consider the M10-R in my opinion is the much-improved highlight retention (which also translates into better shadows detail because I'm not having to constantly dial in negative exposure compensation).

The R can also help you work on your shooting technique if you want to take full advantage of the higher resolution.

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