M10-P or M10-R for my first digital Leica?

[Mikep996]

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"or they  know their customer base"

Good point!

[scott kirkpatrick]

51 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

....But I just don't understand the pricing scheme.  The 24 MP "three year old" camera is selling for only around 6% less than the current 40MP camera.  You can get that much of a discount on most new items from a dealer - though probably not an M10R at the moment.  But still, to me it would be like going to a car dealer tomorrow and having him say he'd sell you a 'new' 2017 car that he happened to have in stock for 6% less than a 2020 car.  Would anybody take that deal?  It makes no financial sense to me.  

OTOH, since Leica are not dramatically reducing the price of the 24MP M10's, they must be confident they will sell which indicates they know more about marketing than I do!  

The M10-P and M10-R are closer in age than it may appear.  I suspect the electronics inside the 24 MPx -P/D and the 40+ MPx  -M/R are essentially the same.  There were rumors that the S3, which shares sensor technology and the same "system-on-a-chip" components with the M10-R was delayed in its announcement while some last minute technical issues were ironed out.  Thus the M derivatives of the new sensor technology couldn't be announced either.  So the original plan may have been to upgrade the shutter and various little things we never hear about and put those into the M10-P, then provide the new sensor upgrade back in early 2019.  Instead, they had to fill the news gap with the M10--D, which I can't but appreciate even if it proves short-lived.  Imagine what Leica might have charged for a 40 MPx M10-R if they had had it ready to ship a year earlier.  We're getting a bargain, only $500 more than the base model M10-P now.

Edited September 6, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

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[Kwesi]

I wonder if there is any incentive for Leica to offer a sensor upgrade program for M10-P owners.

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

LOL...yep, the "best" camera will never occur.  I'm sure Leica, like everyone else, could have more in the latest version of the M10 than they do but that makes no sense if you want to continue selling new products.

But I just don't understand the pricing scheme.  The 24 MP "three year old" camera is selling for only around 6% less than the current 40MP camera.  You can get that much of a discount on most new items from a dealer - though probably not an M10R at the moment.  But still, to me it would be like going to a car dealer tomorrow and having him say he'd sell you a 'new' 2017 car that he happened to have in stock for 6% less than a 2020 car.  Would anybody take that deal?  It makes no financial sense to me.  

OTOH, since Leica are not dramatically reducing the price of the 24MP M10's, they must be confident they will sell which indicates they know more about marketing than I do!  

It may not be silly in terms of marketing. The M10R price is already milking the market, but if people spend thousands 'upgrading' from their M10 now what happens when the M11 comes along, and it may be soon? So Leica don't want to make a big deal of it and devalue the M10 because some sensible people won't spend twice in a short period of time. The M10R price is there to tempt the weak.

The Leica model range and pricing is becoming increasingly decadent, and we know what follows in societies that have fallen into decadence. No wonder Steve Huff has divorced himself from Leica, but I suppose given his other interests he should have seen that coming 

https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/all-reviews/leica-reviews/

Edited September 6, 2020 by 250swb

[Mikep996]

That's interesting, I had not seen that Steve Huff article.  Last Leica thing I recall reading from him was a glowing review of the Q2 so clearly he has changed his view re Leica.  Can't really disagree with his points but I prefer using a Leica M10 to any other camera.  

[Jeff S]

Huff’s observations about Leica prices and price increases primarily apply to the M line, which is a niche without real competition, and with a unique and loyal user base.  The SL2, on the other hand, was introduced at $1500 less than his favorite digital SL, despite inclusion of IBIS, better weather sealing, higher resolution, faster processing, etc.(whether he wants or likes those changes or not). Even Leica understands market dynamics. 
 

Jeff

[jaapv]

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Not only that, but for  instance the M9 and M240 prices weren't increased over the previous models. As long as nobody knows the manufacturing cost of the cameras, "milking" is needlessly pejorative. All in all, Leica's company profits are decent, but by no means excessive.

Price complaints are as old as the. company...

[astrostl]

I have a base M10 and do not feel compelled to upgrade.

If I were buying today it would be an M10-R, and it wouldn't be a remotely close decision. Would take a much, much larger price difference to even think about it.

[WvE]

On 9/6/2020 at 2:59 PM, Jeff S said:

Huff’s observations about Leica prices and price increases primarily apply to the M line, which is a niche without real competition, and with a unique and loyal user base.  The SL2, on the other hand, was introduced at $1500 less than his favorite digital SL, despite inclusion of IBIS, better weather sealing, higher resolution, faster processing, etc.(whether he wants or likes those changes or not). Even Leica understands market dynamics. 
 

Jeff

 Steve jumped ship, just like Erwin Puts. I guess he's right, Leica is basically emotion as quality wise there is probably no reason to spend that kind of money on camera's and lenses.   

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, WvE said:

 Steve jumped ship, just like Erwin Puts. I guess he's right, Leica is basically emotion as quality wise there is probably no reason to spend that kind of money on camera's and lenses.   

I have my own reasons for buying certain Leica gear, none of which have anything to do with reviewers’ opinions. Works for me.

Jeff

[WvE]

19 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I have my own reasons for buying certain Leica gear, none of which have anything to do with reviewers’ opinions. Works for me.

Jeff

Works for me too, but it can't hurt to do a reality check once a while. 

[Mo(w)gli]

I decided on the M10R as my first M, after having been shooting with a Q2 for over a year. The Q2 made me used to the high-resolution sensor and I wouldn't want to miss it with my M. The 500 € surcharge to the P is definitely worth it to me.

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, WvE said:

Works for me too, but it can't hurt to do a reality check once a while. 

Puts and Huff have no bearing on my reality check, which only depends on my own value equation.  You wrote that “there is probably no reason to spend that kind of money on cameras and lenses.”  We disagree. To each his/her own.

Jeff

[WvE]

49 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Puts and Huff have no bearing on my reality check, which only depends on my own value equation.  You wrote that “there is probably no reason to spend that kind of money on cameras and lenses.”  We disagree. To each his/her own.

Jeff

That's entirely up to you, of course.  

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, WvE said:

That's entirely up to you, of course.  

Indeed....hence, last sentence.

Jeff

[martinot]

On 9/4/2020 at 6:16 PM, gettons said:

The lens thing is definitely reassuring. With regards of the reason why one should go for the 40MP although not strictly needed is, as I mentioned, the fact that if I find myself to sell the camera, it will probably be much easier to do and at higher price. 

Buying some lenses can (some times) be a good investment, but normally buying a digital camera, including Leica M, i most often a loss (from a financial point of view, but great for enhancing and enjoying life).

Buy stocks and real estate for investment. Not digital cameras.

Buy cameras for shooting and enjoying. Financially it is very rarely a good investment.

Pro tip: spend more money on good lenses than you spend on digital camera bodies. 

[martinot]

On 9/5/2020 at 5:38 PM, Kwesi said:

Based purely on specs, the Xpro 3 is light years ahead of the M10-R in terms of exposure control for landscape photography.

My suggestion would be to buy a used M10-P with warranty solely for the street photography and use your Xpro-3 when you feel like shooting landscapes.

If you prefer a new camera then go for the M10-R the small difference in price makes it the obvious choice. and no one will notice the red dot while you are out shooting  onto street.

Totally agree with your advice.

I love my M camera, but it is no complete replacement for a good mirror less one. It is however a great complement for enjoying some zen like experiences (but some times it could be like wise frustrating, if I where to use it instead for mirror less or DSLR for sports and telephoto, and some other uses cases where M is not the best fit).

Most M users I know also has a DSLR and/or a mirrorless as well (often Leica SL/SL2 or Fujifilm). For a good reason.

If you want to love your digital M, use it in situations where it works for you (not against you), and you will love it even more!

 

[martinot]

On 9/6/2020 at 1:41 PM, 250swb said:

. No wonder Steve Huff has divorced himself from Leica, but I suppose given his other interests he should have seen that coming 

https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/all-reviews/leica-reviews/

Yes, he seems to think, as the camera business is in decline, it is more money in HiFi and speaker reviews it seems. Probably a good thing to try for him!

Edited September 11, 2020 by martinot

[martinot]

16 hours ago, WvE said:

 Steve jumped ship, just like Erwin Puts. I guess he's right, Leica is basically emotion as quality wise there is probably no reason to spend that kind of money on camera's and lenses.   

Personally I do not buy M camera and M lenses for mainly quality reasons (even if they are of good quality, I can get as good, or better, image quality with other systems for the same money). I buy it for the enjoyment of compact lens system, and the zen like experience of using a pure rangefinder camera.

That's why I love the M system.

If for example Zeiss or Fuji (or some others) made modern digital rangefinders I would absolutely consider them (I love Fujifilm mirror less cameras better than Leica CL, and enjoy some of Zeiss great lenses made for both X-system and M-system). I am no extremist tied to only the red logo or Leica name for everything, or for no reason.

Today it is only Leica who makes modern and new rangefinders, and I really appreciate the fact that they still do. It is a treasure that they still can have a financially viable business doing so, and for that I am prepared to support them. Hope they will be able to continue to do so for many more years, and so long I think they have done an excellent job doing so.

I really love the Leica history and heritage, but I love even more their products, and what they do today.

Edited September 11, 2020 by martinot

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rramesh]

Gettons, Fujis take great pictures with manual lenses. If you seek more megapixels, Fuji does have digital medium formats and have the same type of controls as what you are used to.

Leica Ms are true rangefinders and handle differently. You might need to try them out to assess suitability before jumping into a buy decision on a top-of-the line Leica M. Might be better to start with a cheaper used body and invest the savings in a good Leica lens.

Edited September 11, 2020 by rramesh