Darktable and Leica Presets?

[MikeMyers]

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During my "Walkabout" this afternoon, I took about ten photos, half of which I deleted.  The following is the last image, after half an hour trying to get DarkTable to do the needful.  The only "fancy" thing I did was the watermark.  Everything else was "basic".

I've never adjusted an image before by picking a spot on the histogram, and dragging it as needed to prevent clipping.  It was actual pretty intuitive.  When it came to the tone curve, DarkTable somehow already suggested a curve, and I liked it more than what I was about to do.  Making the image "level" was difficult, as I used my mouse - there's probably a more sensitive way to do it.  My gut feeling about the M8.2 images is to try to use them "whole", without cropping, but that didn't work for me.  I didn't try to do anything about noise, but at ISO 160 there shouldn't be much.  Exporting was effortless - I set the max size to 1200 pixels, and DarkTable did the rest.  

Camera was M8.2, and lens was my China-Cron, (7Artisans 35mm f/2).  If I go out and about tomorrow, I'll try with my old Leica 35mm.  Oh, and the sun was directly behind those branches - look carefully, and you can see it.  I expected this to cause more problems than I see here.  My eye was on the lady and the dog the whole time.  Before too many people complain about the lens, I should add that it sells for only $280 brand new, and the buyer needs to adjust the focusing ramp - it's not done at the factory.

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Edited December 1, 2021 by MikeMyers

[MikeMyers]

I woke up thinking about DarkTable, and went back to look at my images.  I was surprised to find that the M8's version of the images didn't need much editing, other than my own limitations.  All my images needed straightening, and cropping, as the photo in my mind was "within" the photo captured by the camera, and I concentrate so much on the part of the image I care about, that the camera sometimes gets tilted.  For the image I posted last night, I un-did some of my changes - what you see below is closer to out-of-camera, other than for my two main corrections (straightening, and cropping) and adding a watermark.  Also, the more I use the M8.2, the more I enjoy the images it creates.  DarkTable seems to bring that out naturally, if I don't mess it up by changing things that don't need changing!

Meanwhile back at DarkTable, I will go into their forum (or a training video) and learn if I can create my own "menu" of DarkTable tools, including the ones I find I want/need the most.  

I'm also confused at the DarkTable histogram - after I did the adjustments the way I thought I was supposed to do it, I decided I preferred the camera's captured histogram more.

I am very happy about the "reset" function - if I don't like what I've been doing, I just go to the "History List" and click on the first correction, and I'm able to start all over again.

Something else I need to evaluate - I have a choice of importing the images into DarkTable, or editing them where I put them after my import from Photo Mechanic, (with more descriptive folder names and file names).  Then, suppose I took 50, or 150 images.  Normally I would review them in Photo Mechanic as I ingested them into the computer, and would be left with only 5 to 15 of my bestimages. Unfortunately, this doesn't work for the M8 cameras, as they create tiny jpg images embedded in the raw files.  The experts at PhotoMechanic taught me a way to create larger jpg previews, which makes the images easier to review.  My improved way to do this, was to use PhotoMechanic to "ingest" all the images, then go to the folder where they were stored, and use Apple's tools to review them, using Apple Finder and  "Gallery Mode".  I would then delete the bad photos.

Later today, I will see if I can do this in DarkTable, view the images in a large size, and delete the bad images.  If I can figure out how to do this, I'll post the information here.  If someone here already knows this, please post how to do it.

Another project for later today is to look for existing Leica Presets for the M8.2 camera, and perhaps my lenses, and see if I can create a Preset within DarkTable to make those corrections automatic when I open DarkTable.

I haven't needed it yet, but I also need to find out how to use DarkTable's noise corrections.  If I'm forced to use the M8.2 at higher ISO speeds, I'm sure I'll need this.

 

I'm just starting out, but I already enjoy DarkTable a lot.  My choices are DarkTable, Raw Therapee, Lightroom, and Photoshop.  I still have my other editors including those I used in the past for the M8 images, but I enjoy the "flow" of editing with DarkTable.)  Maybe by 2022 I'll be at home with it.

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[01maciel]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb MikeMyers:

Again, if someone has created a Preset for a Leica M8.2, please post a link to it here.

I think there isn't any specific M8.2 preset available for dt but there is a generic "Leica like" preset 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb MikeMyers:

if someone has created a Preset for a Leica M8.2

There is a simple way to create your own presets. Just edit a photo to your taste and save the necessary pp steps from the history into a new preset (which is equal to the "style" term in the following screenshot) like this:

[jaapv]

Mike, TBH, I think you woulkd be far better off with mainstream editing programs like Lightroom, Capture One or On1

[MikeMyers]

6 hours ago, 01maciel said:

There is a simple way to create your own presets. Just edit a photo to your taste and save the necessary pp steps from the history into a new preset (which is equal to the "style" term in the following screenshot) like this:

Oops, I was thinking the Presets would be more like DxO Optical Presets, where DxO has thoroughly examined cameras and lenses, and offers presets to correct errors in "geometry and optics", such as lenses that "pincushion", that sort of thing.  Their presets have nothing to do with my editing, they only allow for corrections for cameras, and lenses, something that would be difficult for me to do.  If these Leica presets just emulate what I did on one image, and allow me to apply it to future images, I think that would be much less useful, but maybe a timesaver.

 

If Leica Presets are available for Leica cameras and lenses, which can I download them?  That is something I would certainly want to do!

Edited December 1, 2021 by MikeMyers

[MikeMyers]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Mike, TBH, I think you woulkd be far better off with mainstream editing programs like Lightroom, Capture One or On1

Hmm, I don't consider myself a "mainstream photographer", and if all these programs give me access to the same tools why might one be better than another.  

Also, I used to enjoy Lightroom when I owned it.  It would always be there, as long as I had my computer.  With today's version, if I stop using it, I lose everything - it won't work any more. Ditto for Photoshop - it used to cost me more to buy it, but it was mine.  If I bought a new computer, I could delete it from my old computer, and install it on the new computer.

Back to the subject at hand, by far my favorite image editor currently is DxO PhotoLab, which has tools none of the others offer, such as "Control Lines", and "Control Points".  I had already stopped using anything else, and for the past two years I've been doing all my work in PhotoLab, along with their companion programs that make it even more powerful.  This was a "done deal", over and finished, but for one major "oops".  PhotoLab only accepts images from cameras that they have analyzed and posted corrections for.  If I took a photo with a Canon camera and a Canon lens, PhotoLab would tell me to download the files with the data on that body, and that lens.  So far, so good (for me at least), but what about the Leica M8 cameras?  Apparently DxO feels that there aren't enough people using that camera, for them to justify setting up the files for it in PhotoLab.  Until this year, PhotoLab wouldn't accept files from the Fuji cameras with an X-Trans Sensor either - but now they do.  So, what to do?

The obvious answer for me was to go to Raw Therapee, which has lots of people using it to process infrared photos, color and black&white, something I very much enjoy doing.  I installed Raw Therapee, but I didn't use it enough to get comfortable with it - but I got it to work anyway.  I think I might be able to do all those things just as easily in DarkTable.  Oh, and one last thought - people used to think that DarkTable was a free alternative to Lightroom, as they both seem so similar.  The opinions now are that DarkTable has passed Lightroom.  I can't comment on that.  What I do like, is the way DarkTable saves all the editing information in an XMP file, just as PhotoLab saves my editing in a DOP file.  Keep those two files together, and I can move things to a new computer - and there is no "catalog" containing all that data - as in if I lose my Lightroom catalog, I'll likely lose all my edits.  (Fortunately I still own an old version of Lightroom, and have a backup of my catalogs and images, but I won't need that unless I pull the plug on Adobe, which I'm not likely to do until I find an equally easy way to do color channel swapping.

Besides, if I was doing "mainstream" photography, all my old cameras would soon be history, and I'd be using a Nikon Z.  The fact that I'm still using, and enjoying, my old M8.2, M2, and M3, along with my M10) defines me as very much not "mainstream".

Curious - how much have YOU used DarkTable?  Have you given it a chance to show what it can, and can't, do?  It will never replace Photoshop, which does things well outside of "photography", but while I still have it/them (and will, as long as I pay the monthly fee for Adobe), what reasons might make me "better off with mainstream editing programs like Lightroom, Capture One or On1"?

Since I accept and adapt to your advice on anything and everything in this forum when it comes to my Leica cameras, what is it that might make Lightroom better for me than DarkTable?  (If you mean I would have more and better support, I agree with you.  Since I used to use Lightroom, Capture One, ON1, Affinity Photo, Raw Therapee, Luminar, Photomatix, and who knows how many others, at one point in time I knew them well enough to use them.  I think they were all "easier" to learn than DarkTable, but they all had limitations in one way or another, not to mention they cost $$.  I can't comment on ease of use - they were all thoroughly confusabobbled to me, but with use, they all eventually made sense (to me).  DarkTable has its own unique way of doing things (even cropping!!), but my biggest issue today is finding the tool in the menu, not using it. 

If I wasn't sort of a "goofball", why am I messing around with my M8.2 camera when I already own an M10?  In every way I can think of, the M10 is "better", but the M8.2 is more "personal" - If I do things properly, I love the results.  Maybe that's mostly due to the CCD sensor?  I used to wish it was full-frame, but if I want wide angle, I just use a wider lens than I would on my other Leica cameras, and get the result I'm after.  No anti-infrared filter - I read where this allows it to be used like a Leica Monochrom which I can't afford.  Image quality?  It isn't "better" or "worse" than other Leica bodies, just "different".  It has lots more limitations than newer cameras, but if I use it within those limits, I'm satisfied with the results.

(I don't think I would recommend the M8 cameras, or DarkTable, to most people I know.  They wouldn't "understand" and would be disappointed.  Me?  I think of the M8 like I think of the M10, and love both.  For editing, I highly doubt I'll start using Lightroom again, now that I've also got DarkTable on my computer(S).  .....did I mention that I can install it on ALL my computers, without breaking my license and/or paying more????

Edited December 1, 2021 by MikeMyers

[jaapv]

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Well, for one thing, you seem to like presets. In that case ON1 is the program of choice, as they offer a vast selection of high-quality ones.

FWIIW, I think the M8 can do much better than the washed-out muddy colours Darktable has produced. Did you use an IR filter? The greens look rather yellowish-olive.

[01maciel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb MikeMyers:

Oops, I was thinking the Presets would be more like DxO Optical Presets, where DxO has thoroughly examined cameras and lenses, and offers presets to correct errors in "geometry and optics", such as lenses that "pincushion", that sort of thing.  

Ahh yes, I know what you mean. Same things different terms. These kind of presets (dt speak: lens correction) is indeed poorly developed in darktable. The lens correction module is part of the lensfun project (and well integrated into dt). There are heaps of correction profiles of cameras and lenses in dt. Unfortunately, Leica is not well represented in their support list. Obviously the developer guys do not own a lot of Leica cameras or rangefinder lenses. I am wondering, why 😄

tbh these lens correction profiles is just a feature to keep the user comfort levels at maximum. There are other modules to keep you happy, e.g. the rotate and perspective tool. This requires more time and work and it needs of course a basic understanding of lens geometry. This is why some of my photos looks so odd

I suppose there are no perfect tools for postprocessing jobs, just compromises.

[MikeMyers]

Actually, while I used to like Presets, I have been talked out of using them.  My friends convinced me that it is ME who needs to make the choices and decisions regarding composition, color, saturation, and all the rest.  What I'm incapable of doing is correcting errors in my camera or lenses - that kind of a preset will gladly use.

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

washed-out muddy colours

Any washed out, muddy colors are my fault - when I liked what I saw on my calibrated display, I stopped.  What I saw with my eyes, looking into the sun, was much worse.  But if that is a problem, blame me, not the software.  And yes, I agree with you, the "greens" don't look the way they should, my fault, as I never got the things I need to use the one anti-IR filter Leica sent me.

 

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Did you use an IR filter? The greens look rather yellowish-olive.

I have one anti-IR filter, a Leica #13411 Filter E46 UV/IR, which doesn't fit any of my lenses.  I am in the process of buying step up/down rings to use this filter on the lenses I use on my M8.  My 50mm f/2 Summicron, and my 135mm TeleElmar both have 39mm threads.  My 7Artisans 35mm f/2 lens takes a 43mm filter (already on order).  My Voigtlander 50mm f/2 takes 49mm filter, so it needs a step-down filter adapter (which shouldn't be an issue because of the crop factor).  

Until lately, I expected to use my M8.2 for infrared photography, and use the greatly improved (in so many ways) M10 for everything else.   What are your personal thoughts on the M8.2 cameras?  .....and if I'm not going to be using my M8.2, I'm not sure how much I'll be using DarkTable, as PhotoLab works great with the M10.

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Actually, while I used to like Presets, I have been talked out of using them.  My friends convinced me that it is ME who needs to make the choices and decisions regarding composition, color, saturation, and all the rest.  What I'm incapable of doing is correcting errors in my camera or lenses - that kind of a preset will gladly use.

The nice thing with ON1 is that they provide a starting point of your choice, which you can tweak to refine it. Additionally you can use it as a full editor.

(Composition is not a matter of presets  )

[MikeMyers]

13 minutes ago, 01maciel said:

The lens correction module is part of the lensfun project (and well integrated into dt). There are heaps of correction profiles of cameras and lenses in dt.

Well, this is way down the road for me.  My first task is to just learn how to use DarkTable efficiently, before I ever start to modify things.  I never heard of the "lens fun project" before.  I haven't looked at what presets are available in DarkTable.  Until I am familiar with DarkTable, and how to use it effectively,  I'm just doing basic corrections.

Do you shoot with your M8 camera a lot?  If so, can I ask "why?"   Is it "you", or is it the "M8" ?

[01maciel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb MikeMyers:

Do you shoot with your M8 camera a lot?

No sorry, my first Leica was (and still is) a Leica M10. I have never been a APS-C guy. I don't know why but it didn't feel right when I tried a few shots years and years ago with an odd Canon. Anyway, the software does not depend on full frame or not, it is just a matter of the specific raw file support.

[MikeMyers]

If you're shooting with an M10, you might want to give DxO PhotoLab a try.  

[01maciel]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb MikeMyers:

you might want to give DxO PhotoLab a try.

I would if I could. PhotoLab does not support my OS (Linux)

[jaapv]

On 12/1/2021 at 7:39 PM, 01maciel said:

No sorry, my first Leica was (and still is) a Leica M10. I have never been a APS-C guy. I don't know why but it didn't feel right when I tried a few shots years and years ago with an odd Canon. Anyway, the software does not depend on full frame or not, it is just a matter of the specific raw file support.

The M8 is not APS-C, but APS-H   which is considerably larger (70% of 24x36)

[Martin B]

12 hours ago, jaapv said:

The M8 is not APS-C, but APS-H   which is considerably larger (70% of 24x36)

There are two good things about the M8: that it is able to take infrared photos without IR-conversion needed (for regular color photos an additional IR filter on the lens is needed though), and that it is currently the lowest priced digital M in the used market. But this is about it......that it is not full frame was instantly the exclusion criterium for me. 

[MikeMyers]

I knew all about this when I bought my M8.2 as a "new demo" from Robert's Imaging.  None of that bothered me - I just figured I would use my 35mm lens to capture the field of view of my 50mm.  It wasn't a reason for buying, or not buying, the M8.2, and I read that Leica hadn't yet figured out how to capture the full field of view from Leica lenses - as I recall, Leica does something special above the sensor to aim the light properly at the sensor.

I now own the M8.2 and an M10, and have no desire to even think of selling either.  

I bought my 8.2 a few weeks before the M9 came out - I didn't yet know why I liked the M8.2 so much, but I had no desire to add on more $$ for the M9.  Roberts Imaging would have let me update, but by then I liked what I had. 

(I need to add that Leica's biggest "mistake" was a bonus feature for me - not only could I then shoot infrared photos, but the black and white images were exceptionally sharp.)

 

[zeitz]

All I know is that my M8 still works like new and my M9 doesn't work at all.