Hankering after Large Format.

[James S]

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7 minutes ago, pippy said:

EDIT : I meant to mention, earlier, that I really like the OP's Svalbard images in the link in his first post; really nice work!

Thanks Philip. Really nice to hear!

Edited to add - Not been able to share them here as they were *cough* canon or sony. But I was restricted in space and not sure what I was going to find there (wildlife, landscapes or something else) so took the most versatile system I had.

Edited August 25, 2020 by James S

[pippy]

26 minutes ago, James S said:

...I was restricted in space and not sure what I was going to find there...so took the most versatile system I had.

Probably a bit more sensible than hauling this thing around - especially on the deck of a moving boat...

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Still; if you fancy a go send me a PM; it actually fits in a surprisingly neat-sized custom-made case!

Philip.

Edited August 25, 2020 by pippy

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[Pyrogallol]

I’ve got some homemade 5x4 and 5x7 fixed focus landscape cameras that are no heavier than a Leica outfit.

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[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, James S said:

 Initially I would probably scan using something like a v700/v850 (against Jeff's advice), but at least with the negative, I would have the option to upgrade the final produced print at a later date!

 

Not my advice, just my personal preference.  I sincerely hope that whatever you choose to do works for you and gives you pleasure. 
 

Jeff

[250swb]

6 hours ago, James S said:

 

Philip, thank you for the kind offer of the loan of your kit, but at the moment I don't have any reason to head up to London. Initially I would probably scan using something like a v700/v850 (against Jeff's advice), but at least with the negative, I would have the option to upgrade the final produced print at a later date!

.

The bad rep for the V700/V850 is because it scans the way a large format cold cathode enlarger prints, so for scanning the diffuse light source is not at all great for 35mm, much better for medium format, very good for large format. They even come with a 4x5 mask. 

[otto.f]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

The bad rep for the V700/V850 is because it scans the way a large format cold cathode enlarger prints, so for scanning the diffuse light source is not at all great for 35mm, much better for medium format, very good for large format. They even come with a 4x5 mask. 

I use the 850 indeed for my 4x5 slides and negatives. I happened to come across a Beseler though with the whole darkroom and three Schneider lenses for a reasonable price and I do prefer wet printing with Bergger papers. Analogue is analogue and digital is digital, I don’t like scanning actually.

[pgk]

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Here's a snap (on a Leica of course😉) of an ongoing 'restoration' (actually I just want to get it up and running). My Gandolfi "Universal" Tailboard Camera (not marked as such but there is 'L Gandolfi' stamped on the cross strut under the bellows which needs a dentist's mirror to locate and view) and a 7.5" f/8~11ish Aplanatic Doublet lens by Sir Howard Grubb of Dublin. They are probably contemporary although precise dates are very difficult to pin down (around ~1880s/90s I suspect). The lens is uncoated but gives a sharp and bright image on the ground glass. I have several original Gandolfi plate holders but will probably make a 5" x 4" back for it as film is then readily available (from my fridge). Shutter will be front mounted on the lens. New bellows are required. The camera and lens have seen a lot of use and is very portable. Total cost to date for this piece of real photographic history is about £350.

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[pgk]

Ad in case anyone wonders how these old (1880s) lenses perform, well here is a 9 image stitch taken on the brass lens pictured above:

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Edited August 26, 2020 by pgk

[pippy]

16 hours ago, 250swb said:

The bad rep for the V700/V850 is because it scans the way a large format cold cathode enlarger prints, so for scanning the diffuse light source is not at all great for 35mm...

Sorry in advance for going a bit off-topic for a second but...

OK; I understand the point re: condenser v's diffuser enlargers being transposed onto scanners. In which case is there ANY 35mm film scanner available at around the same price point which can be recommended highly? I've read many reviews over the last 12 months or so and many of them have reported findings which flatly contradict the conclusions of other reviews and reviewers! From the samples of 100% crops I've seen online the Plustek 8200 seems to be the 'best' performer - even against considerably more expensive kit.

Philip.

Edited August 26, 2020 by pippy

[Ouroboros]

On 8/25/2020 at 2:45 PM, pgk said:

The Intrepid is the only current UK made option (Brighton?) as far as I am aware.

No it isn't.  Steve Lloyd at Chroma Camera has created an interesting and expanding range of LF cameras.  Rather more refined than Intrepid imo.

To the OP I would say ignore any negative replies to your anguish and give it a go.  Embrace the discipline.  You might love it, you might not, but trying it is the only way you'll find out.  

 

[250swb]

5 hours ago, pippy said:

Sorry in advance for going a bit off-topic for a second but...

OK; I understand the point re: condenser v's diffuser enlargers being transposed onto scanners. In which case is there ANY 35mm film scanner available at around the same price point which can be recommended highly? I've read many reviews over the last 12 months or so and many of them have reported findings which flatly contradict the conclusions of other reviews and reviewers! From the samples of 100% crops I've seen online the Plustek 8200 seems to be the 'best' performer - even against considerably more expensive kit.

Philip.

I don't know that there is much competition left to compare against. The 35mm Plustek scanners (the long oblong ones) are basically more or less all the same except the model number comes from the version of Silverfast bundled with it (I hate Silverfast so use Vuescan). The exception is I think the 7400 didn't have an infra red mode so couldn't do dust removal etc. but nobody would scan for top quality with that anyway. The Plustek 120 is comparable with the 35mm version at 35mm, but of course does medium format as well. The newer Plustek 120 Pro now has adjustable focus but with flat negs I've never had a problem with the fixed focus Plustek scanners. But scanning is a whole new discipline, it has a learning curve that doesn't get covered in the manual so reviews will vary.

Personally I think the 35mm Plusteks are perfectly good enough for an exhibition print if the chain of events is respected, so adjust processing for a lower contrast but rich toned neg, not something you'd necessarily aim for in the darkroom, scan at low contrast, then use Lightroom or Photoshop for the final processing.

[pippy]

34 minutes ago, 250swb said:

...Personally I think the 35mm Plusteks are perfectly good enough for an exhibition print if the chain of events is respected, so adjust processing for a lower contrast but rich toned neg, not something you'd necessarily aim for in the darkroom, scan at low contrast, then use Lightroom or Photoshop for the final processing.

Thank you very much, Steve, for taking the time to share your experiences and thoughts. Most helpful, I assure you. I'm not familiar with Silverfast but have known and used Vuescan software for over a decade so things could be more straightforward than I might have expected!

Thanks again!

Philip.

Edited August 26, 2020 by pippy

[adan]

I'll bypass the gear side mostly (except closing remarks) because it has been well-handled so far.

For me the biggest headache in shooting 4x5 film is the film processing. Tray? Dedicated plastic tanks and slotted racks? Deep tanks with individual metal hangers and racks?

I've always had the best results (minimal blobs, scatches, crud, etc.) with the last, but they require a commitment not only in money, but space, to do right. 3-4 feet of "wet" shelf or counter surface, or a really big sink, and a fairly high volume of shooting to make them economical (~40 negs a week, at least - or else a lot of pouring out and pouring in 2 liters of chemicals each session).

See "sheet film" section: http://www.afterness.com/darkroom/drk_meeting_02.html

I had the luck to work in institutional darkrooms where space was no object, in colleges, hospitals, newspapers and such, and they made 4x5 much easier.

But it is a serious consideration.

As to the cameras, I like the look of both the Intrepid and the Chroma Snapshot. If I could lick the processing problem, the Chroma for sure would tempt me (the normal-to-wide lens range suits me, don't need 210 and 360mms).

But in reality, what I always bought (four or five times) were Crown/Speed Graphic press cameras, because they were available as a unit (camera, board, lens ready fitted) for $200-500 complete and ready to shoot. And the Graphics have a built-in flip-out shade on the ground-glass back, saving the need for a dark cloth. Or the option to just be a big Leica, with rangefinder and viewfinder included - sometimes.  And self-boxing - collapse them, fold up the front, carry like a lunchpail. A bit déclassé with usually a Kodak Ektar 135mm, but good enough for a beginner to get a feel for the workflow and the gross image characteristics, and decide if they really "like" 4x5.

https://vintagecameralab.com/graflex-crown-graphic/

The seriously-upscale equivalent would be a Linhof Technika. Both are a bit limited in tilts, especially the Graphics. Both are heavy compared to all-wood or carbon "field" cameras. But solid as rocks, and convenient other than weight.

https://www.catlabs.info/product/linhof-super-technika-iv-4x5

Edited August 27, 2020 by adan

[rpittal]

On 8/25/2020 at 11:07 AM, pippy said:

As far as I can see, William, they are still being manufactured today. London's main Pro shops all have them - brand new and boxed - in stock.

Philip.

EDIT : I meant to mention, earlier, that I really like the OP's Svalbard images in the link in his first post; really nice work!

I get my 4X5 and 8X10 film holders from Intrepid; much cheaper than from other sources for new units.

[rpittal]

12 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

No it isn't.  Steve Lloyd at Chroma Camera has created an interesting and expanding range of LF cameras.  Rather more refined than Intrepid imo.

To the OP I would say ignore any negative replies to your anguish and give it a go.  Embrace the discipline.  You might love it, you might not, but trying it is the only way you'll find out.  

 

Mark Voce (UK) also makes beautiful wet plate cameras (I have a 4X5 and 8X10 from him)

[rpittal]

1 hour ago, adan said:

I'll bypass the gear side mostly (except closing remarks) because it has been well-handled so far.

For me the biggest headache in shooting 4x5 film is the film processing. Tray? Dedicated plastic tanks and slotted racks? Deep tanks with individual metal hangers and racks?

I've always had the best results (minimal blobs, scatches, crud, etc.) with the last, but they require a commitment not only in money, but space, to do right. 3-4 feet of "wet" shelf or counter surface, or a really big sink, and a fairly high volume of shooting to make them economical (~40 negs a week, at least - or else a lot of pouring out and pouring in 2 liters of chemicals each session).

See "sheet film" section: http://www.afterness.com/darkroom/drk_meeting_02.html

I had the luck to work in institutional darkrooms where space was no object, in colleges, hospitals, newspapers and such, and they made 4x5 much easier.

But it is a serious consideration.

As to the cameras, I like the look of both the Intrepid and the Chroma Snapshot. If I could lick the processing problem, the Chroma for sure would tempt me (the normal-to-wide lens range suits me, don't need 210 and 360mms).

But in reality, what I always bought (four or five times) were Crown/Speed Graphic press cameras, because they were available as a unit (camera, board, lens ready fitted) for $200-500 complete and ready to shoot. And the Graphics have a built-in flip-out shade on the ground-glass back, saving the need for a dark cloth. Or the option to just be a big Leica, with rangefinder and viewfinder included - sometimes.  And self-boxing - collapse them, fold up the front, carry like a lunchpail. A bit déclassé with usually a Kodak Ektar 135mm, but good enough for a beginner to get a feel for the workflow and the gross image characteristics, and decide if they really "like" 4x5.

https://vintagecameralab.com/graflex-crown-graphic/

The seriously-upscale equivalent would be a Linhof Technika. Both are a bit limited in tilts, especially the Graphics. Both are heavy compared to all-wood or carbon "field" cameras. But solid as rocks, and convenient other than weight.

https://www.catlabs.info/product/linhof-super-technika-iv-4x5

The Stearman Press SP-445 is a great tank for 4X5 sheet film processing. They also have an 8X10 tray system (load both in the dark, process in light).

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, rpittal said:

The Stearman Press SP-445 is a great tank for 4X5 sheet film processing.

+1

[250swb]

Another vote for the Stearman SP-445, it takes up less space than a Paterson tank on the kitchen sink. But speaking of Paterson I have used one of their daylight print processing trays for developing 4x5 and it works great. It requires a tiny modification to the pins that normally separate the sheets of printing paper, but it takes four sheets of 4x5 and needs only 500ml of developer. For me the one 'modern' method of developing 4x5 that has always failed is processing in a Paterson tank with a 4x5 insert or the 'elastic bands' method and how people can claim it works leaves me baffled.

[James S]

The Stearman SP-445 had surfaced as a preferred development option, so good to hear the votes for it.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[philipus]

I have over the years also thought about 4x5 but in particular the developing has put me off completely. Instead I have resolved to buy a panoramic Shen Hao at some point because it lets me use large format lenses while using 120 film which I can easily scan on my scanners. But anyway, this wasn't about me.

If I may be honest James, from what you've written I don't see that you are committed enough to film to buy a large format camera. It is of course your money so you can do whatever you want, but reading between the lines I don't see the passion for film that such a purchase would require. No offence taken, I hope, because none is intended.

What I mean is that you have an M6, which is a truly fantastic film camera and you have access to a Hasselblad, which in my view is the best medium format camera system on the planet. Yet you don't use either. That you don't use the tilt and shift of the 24 TSE also convincingly suggests that you would not be interested in the more involved and intricate photography that a large format camera requires. 

Forgive me for also being brutally honest but you did ask.

There's a lot on the internet about how the "cost of film" and the "slowness" of film photography in some purportedly miraculous way would make people "better" photographers and result in more "keepers". In my humble opinion it is all rubbish.

For any serious film photographer the cost of film is just the price of entry to a wonderful realm of visceral wonderful photographic results. It is a basic fact that it is magnitudes cheaper to buy and bring more rolls and shoot more frames than to have to go or travel back to a location and re-shoot it because the first shots weren't good enough. Along the same lines, film photography need not be slow at all, even with larger formats. It can, but it doesn't have to be. I use my Hasselblad as a street photography camera as often as I use it to shoot landscapes, cityscapes or macro with a tripod. Those are false truths, in my view.

What you should do, if I may be so bold as to give advise you, is to shoot your digital cameras as you imagine you would a film camera. The slowing down that you seem to seek lies within the photographer, it is that simple.

But as I said, it's you money and perhaps the large format path is one you must trod to see that you needn't have gone that way in the first place.

That said, if you do decide join us film photographers – and I personally hope that you do find that commitment within you – then please come and join us in the wonderful I like film thread.

br

Philip

On 8/24/2020 at 11:46 PM, James S said:

Am I mad, suffering from an uncomfortable bout of GAS, or finally about to set out on the path to true enlightenment?

For some reason, I feel myself drawn more and more to Large Format photography and have a ‘cart’ ready for me to hit the button on the Intrepid website. But what do I stand to gain?

To be honest I worry I would shoot two film holders and consign it to the cupboard: I love shooting with my m246, but rarely get the M6 out. I have access to the wife’s Hasselblad 501, but have shot 14 images in 10 years with it (which I thoroughly enjoyed). I have a 24 TSE for our Canon, so I can do ‘movements’ but rarely make the effort. I will usually bump the iso a bit before getting the tripod out. And the photos I’m probably proudest of (and actually sold for real money) were landscapes taken with a 5D3 from a boat in Svalbard (https://www.jamesstubbs.co.uk/work/svalbard), with a 150-600 mostly at the longer end of the zoom; not something that would have been achieved with a huge box. 

When you then add in that I’m a very self conscious photographer, the head very quickly rules out a faffy, hassle full, slow, tripod bound camera where you can’t help but make a spectacle of oneself, all so I can take a technically perfect but artistically dull picture of a sufficiently hidden away location where I won’t feel a prat, or a flower in a vase.

BUT... I still hanker. I have this dream that the cost of film will make me really consider my composition, while seeing the image both upside down and back to front (having got my reading glasses out to compose it), taken the time to actually make sure my horizon is level, checked the edges to make sure the scene is full. Maybe I’m just after a technical way to set my work apart that I fail to achieve artistically. But when shooting with the Hasselblad, it felt different. My first roll of film had 2 that I was happy with - a much better ratio than I get at the moment: Sometimes I feel I shoot a few Digital images which are ‘close enough’ and so I must have something . And I was even happy to use it in central London - pointing it at people even!

It probably is GAS, I should just run a few rolls through the H501 and develop them at home. Or better - is there anyone in the south west of the UK, where I can do a days workshop with someone good who knows his darkslide from his cable release? A way to try without forking out for a whole load of stuff that I know I would never resell, as that would be admitting defeat.