M10 / M240

[UltraDan]

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I have posted this on the M240 forum but thought I'd ask the same question here as well as it's relevant to this forum :

Question to those that have used or have both of the above cameras - is there much IQ difference between the two? I'm guessing that the M10 just has slightly better ISO performance? 
 

looking at both of these and struggling to find a reason to pay the extra for the M10 other than it's the latest and greatest. 
 

thanks

[elmars]

Everything is better on the M10, especially the viewfinder and the sensor and the slimmer body. Only the battery lasts not so long. But the differences are marginal imo. There is about one f-stop more high-ISO capability On the M10 at the same noise level. This is an advantage, but mostly the 3200 ISO of the M240, that is very good usable, is enough. 

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[hteasley]

A little. M10 does a little better in all areas, but it's not huge. I like that it's a fair bit thinner, more film M thickness.

[adan]

Strictly regarding image output:

1) for me the M10 has close to a 2-stop ISO boost - if one counts banding as well as pure noise appearance. M240 for me started showing banding in the red channel at ISO 2500, while the M10 banding starts at 12500.

2) the default tone curve in the M10 is punchier - more contrast and color saturation. That, of course, can be adjusted in post-processing.

3) the M240 for me had a red bias in the default color calibration (possibly the source of the red banding as well). I found it very hard to correctly capture dark "architectural" greens or evergreen trees - they came out too gray or brown. The M10 default "M10 Embedded" profile is better in that regard.

2 and 3 were Leica's attempt to match the M10 to the "look" of the Kodak CCD sensor in the M9, and all three (along with the non-image characteristics) persuaded me to swap my M9s for the M10, while I had skipped the M240 altogether.

But at this point the M10 is approaching 4 years old, with the M10-R already replacing it and an M(?) perhaps on the horizon. So for a current (happy) M240 owner, it may pay to just wait.

[Tailwagger]

The M240 could be a bit problematic with reds and had nearly zero latitude with highlights whereas the M10 had a tiche more up top and could pull more cleanly from shadow when guarding against blowing the highs.   If LV matters to you, the 240 was nearly unusable, the M10 while not stellar is far better. Lag/blackout times were extremely painful with the 240.

Beyond the battery, I might be the only person on the planet, but I really missed the three position switch on/off/continuous switch. Rare that I'd purposely use C, accidentally, all the time, which presumably is why it was dropped.  That said, when I did want to intentionally shoot multi-frame it is a spur of the moment thing where theres never enough time to dive into a menu to enable it.  I rather have extra frames than miss an important one, but I'l admit inadvertently getting C was annoying as hell. The compromise was obvious,  make the switch off/C/on thus rather than having to hunt for on, hunt for C instead, but the annoyance was so great, it was simply dropped altogether.  

[Raid Amin]

I used an M240 for 8 months, and I found it to be rock solid but I did not like the bulk of this camera. My fingers hurt after the first hour of using the M240. Else, it is was without any faults. The M10 feels more like a film camera to me because of its size and simple set-up. There is no video capability.

[Fgcm]

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You should consider also the M262, the normal one, with the LCD on the back, not the MD, which is a lot lighter than the M240 because the top and the bottom covers are made of black chromed aluminium instead of brass.

100% the same as the 240, but lighter, which makes a great difference in my opinion.

I had one before the M10. It was really good, but, in my opinion, the M10 in a better camera. If your budget is large enough, go for it. Otherwise, the second best is the 262, not the 240.

 

 

 

 

[martinot]

First a bit of ingress to the background of technology, specifically sensor performance, and Leica M cameras:

I think the Image sensor, both high ISO and better dynamic range, is a bit better in M10 than the M (240/262), but neither is great. My Nikons and Fujis have way better performing sensors, and the same goes for the Sony cameras I have used. But leading digital technology or high specs is not the reason to buy a Leica - way behind the rest of the camera industry. 

Why buy a Leica? I for one did because I like the old slow paced way to take photos with care and consideration. In that case it does not matter so much for me that the M-cameras lag behind on the technology and sensor side compared to the rest of the industry. The limitations of the sensor range forces you to take more care of how you take your photos, just like on the old film colour time. Taking photos with a M camera for me is a little bit Zen and meditative qualities that I really appreciate.

If I have tricky photo situations that needs a camera with high DR, high ISO, and low light performance, I just take one of my DSLRs or mirrorless cameras (with way better and more modern sensor technology).

M10 vs M 240/262 (I would never buy a M9 due to sensor corruption):

A year ago I needed a new camera for my company (and for that I needed to look for new cameras from regular suppliers), and was in almost the same situation. Choose between a new M-E 240 for about €4000 or a new M10 for about €6000.

Difficult choice, with each having its own pros and cons (better ISO and LV being biggest plus for M10, and better battery life and shutter being biggest plus for M240). 

In the end I got the M-E 240 and saved €2000 that I could use as additional funds for my lens purchase. This allowed me to go for the latest Leica Summicron 35/2 ASPH over the cheaper Summarit 35/2,4 ASPH, and still have spare money/budget to also purchase a Zeiss Planar T* 2/50 ZM and a Leica SF40 flash.

I am extremely happy with my camera (if I really need to take photos in really low light situations, I have several other non-M cameras that easily beat the M10 in high ISO performance). For me personally it was the right decision to put less money on the camera, and more on the optics, but there is nothing right or wrong here. 

Can not tell you how you should decide. They are both great digital RF cameras! 

Edited August 28, 2020 by martinot

[martinot]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:05 PM, Tailwagger said:

Beyond the battery, I might be the only person on the planet, but I really missed the three position switch on/off/continuous switch. Rare that I'd purposely use C, accidentally, all the time, which presumably is why it was dropped.  That said, when I did want to intentionally shoot multi-frame it is a spur of the moment thing where theres never enough time to dive into a menu to enable it.  I rather have extra frames than miss an important one, but I'l admit inadvertently getting C was annoying as hell. The compromise was obvious,  make the switch off/C/on thus rather than having to hunt for on, hunt for C instead, but the annoyance was so great, it was simply dropped altogether.  

I fully agree with you. I prefer to have the OFF/ON/C/Timer switch on classic M cameras over the new switch on M10 requiring fiddly menu work to switch between S and C mode (I do not care for a quick setting of timer mode, as I very seldom uses it).

I also think the shutter release is better and crisper feeling on the older M240 and M262 cameras compared to the latest M10 shutter release. The 2-3 mm difference in thickness I personally think is generally way too much exaggerated. The weight is almost the same, with both being quite heavy beasts (if I need a thin and light camera I take one of the small mirrorless M43 or smaller Fuji cameras with me).

What I think makes the biggest practical difference, and what I personally think is clearly better on  the M10 (but still not good compared to all other modern cameras) is the improved LV. Not too much concern for me as I mainly use a M camera to be focusing with the OVF and the RF optics (95% of the time I would guess/estimate). But when you do use LV, it is clearly improved a little bit on the M10 (even if still not up to modern standards).

Edited August 28, 2020 by martinot

[Herr Barnack]

On 8/23/2020 at 8:32 PM, Raid Amin said:

I used an M240 for 8 months, and I found it to be rock solid but I did not like the bulk of this camera. My fingers hurt after the first hour of using the M240. Else, it is was without any faults. The M10 feels more like a film camera to me because of its size and simple set-up. There is no video capability.

When I got my M 240 Safari, I thought all the hoopla about the bulk of the camera was nonsense.  But as time wore on, the bulk and the weight of the camera and the chrome 35 Summicron did become bothersome.  I still have my Safari, but it now seems portly and too heavy compared to my M10M with my 28mm Elmarit mounted to it.

I have thought of selling off the 240 Safari set and replacing it with an M10R.  That would put me in the hole one 35mm Summicron, though.  Not so sure I want to go there.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[martinot]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

When I got my M 240 Safari, I thought all the hoopla about the bulk of the camera was nonsense.  But as time wore on, the bulk and the weight of the camera and the chrome 35 Summicron did become bothersome.  I still have my Safari, but it now seems portly and too heavy compared to my M10M with my 28mm Elmarit mounted to it.

I have thought of selling off the 240 Safari set and replacing it with an M10R.  That would put me in the hole one 35mm Summicron, though.  Not so sure I want to go there.

 

 

I think the major difference in weight comparing those two M-setups of yours are mainly due to the different optics.

The M (240)-series weights 680 grams. The M10-series weights 660 grams. That is a difference in just 20 grams.

The Summicron 35/2 weights 254 grams. The Elmarit 28/2.8 weights 173 grams. That is a difference of 81 grams. Four times (4x) that of the difference between different M bodies.

I would say the two major take away are:

1. The most difference in weight in an M camera system are due to the lenses you put on. Look at the weight of the optics before buying a new M camera (for weight reasons).

2. If you want a lightweight and easy to travel system; the M cameras are the wrong choice, regardless of which exact M-body you use. They are all heavyweights.

Go with a light small mirror less system if you want a real difference in ease of travel and light weight (I use small Fujifilm cameras or small Panasonic m43 cameras for that purpose - great, light and travel friendly).

Edited August 29, 2020 by martinot

[Fgcm]

12 hours ago, martinot said:

I think the major difference in weight comparing those two M-setups of yours are mainly due to the different optics.

The M (240)-series weights 680 grams. The M10-series weights 660 grams. That is a difference in just 20 grams.

 

Do not forget the M262, the normal one, with the LCD, not the ME, which weights something less than 600 grams. 

The difference slightly more than 80 grams. The 262 resembles and weights like the M9, but has the electronics of the M240.

I agree with you: also lenses play a role in the equation. I love little and light M lenses, such as the Elmarit 28 asph and the summarits.

[martinot]

14 minutes ago, Fgcm said:

Do not forget the M262, the normal one, with the LCD, not the ME, which weights something less than 600 grams. 

Yes, the M262, in aluminium instead of brass, is the only M camera that has any wesentliche difference in weight (it weights 600 grams).

So for anyone thinking of buying a new M camera for weight reasons, they should really look at the 262 - not the M10. Totally agree.

[a.noctilux]

Talking about weight, we must also talk about "balance" with/without light/heavy lens 😉.

My M(typ 262) at 595g "working" (without battery 500g) may at time be too light to balance front heavy lens like Noctilux/Summilux 75 for example.

Some years ago, I took their "portraits" (2016 some months before launching of M10 !)

 

 

Side notes...

Monochrom MM1 is at 590g a joy to use with light Elmarit-M or Summarit-M lenses.

Strange that M-D (typ 262) much heavier at 686g "working", but in hand the grip is at top without LCD at rear, big lenses's balance is also nice with this fatter/heavier body.

[martinot]

I agree fully about a balanced total system (body + lens).

Very important for me, and applies to all my camera systems (not just M).

Additional point about weight savings; the battery is much smaller and weaker in M10 compared to the much more decent capacity battery in the M 240, so many users have started to carry a spare extra battery. Even if it do not add weight to the actual camera, it do add some weight to the camera bag you carry on your shoulders. That adds another 90 g to the bag (if Leicas info for the BP-SCL5 is correct).

Not any major difference or perhaps problem for some, even if I personally hate needing to change battery in middle of things and therefore looks for cameras with decent battery capacity (for me it is important factor).

 

[UltraDan]

I dont have any issue with the size of my M240 and I am coming from an M4-p which is pretty thin. I'm also coming from a lifetime of shooting Canon DSLR's ( in the water in a water housing too) so honestly any Leica seems like a pocket camera to me!  I'm shooting with a 50mm summicron and a 28mm Elmarit so again, tiny form factors compared to their DSLR counterparts. Though honestly the bigger size and weight does put me off the simmilux's if I'm honest. 

[martinot]

Totally agree. Weight, length and balance of lenses are much more important factors than a few grams or mm saved on the camera.