New LUMIX S5 [MERGED]

[Chaemono]

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An S5 with thinner cover glass would simply appeal to more users, it would expand the TAM. PDAF instead of CDAF and there would no reason to buy the Sony at all. 

[Rokkor]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb lct:

Any info (or rumor) about the thickness of the sensor stack? Just curious.

On dpReview they write that it is the same sensor as in the S1

„

The Panasonic S5 is a 24MP full-frame mirrorless camera built around the same sensor as the Panasonic S1, but in a smaller, more affordable body. In fact, despite having a full-frame sensor, the S5 is smaller in every dimension than its Micro Four Thirds sibling, the GH5. Aiming to appeal to both photographers and videographers, it includes updates to Panasonic's DFD autofocus system, new creative photo modes, and video features that come close to matching both the GH5 and the much more expensive S1H.

Key specifications:

• 24.2MP full-frame CMOS sensor with no AA filter

“

 

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[BernardC]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I have the S1 and SL2, and the SL2 is a lot better in the edges with most M lenses.

Same thing with the Sigma fp. It's better than most non-Leica bodies, but not as good as the SL. You still get soft corners and edge colour. You can fix the colour issue in-camera (you need to create a profile for each M lens), but you can not fix the sharpness.

The SL is relatively cheap these days, so there is no great reason to use a third-party body with M lenses.

[lct]

Only one but a big one: size

[Boojay]

16 hours ago, lct said:

Only one but a big one: size

Yes, I agree, plus IBIS.  The S5 looks interesting, other than (for me) it is maybe a little video centric.  Some pretty interesting release deals available too.   A little over £2k for the Body, 20-60,  shooting grip, extra battery and a free Sigma 45mm going to tempt quite a few I think.  

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/panasonic-lumix-s5-digital-camera-with-20-60mm-lens-plus-shooting-grip-and-spare-battery-1750122/

I very rarely use M lenses on my SL2,  just doesn't seem a good fit to me, happily use them on the CL.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Boojay

[Dennis]

I would love to have a mirrorless camera; I never had one, except a Fujifilm X100 (first version). After an entire life using OVF, I want to give a try to two different things: EVF ( which could be a game-changer), and articulated display, for interesting POV and angles. I don't need at all video functions. So it would be for stills ONLY. 

If I had to buy a camera now, it would be a Sony A7r IV. This because of the 60MP: I can have a lot of details, a chance to crop more if necessary, to print out large. I don't need an EVF camera for work. It would be for the rest, among with my Leica M10. For example, I was thinking of buying an all-in-one lens, such as the cheap but plentiful new Tamron zoom, and a fast 35mm, such as the Sony 1.8. I'm a 35 guy, so I need to have a 35 at least 🙂 Not so fast, but fast enough. And a zoom to play around during day time. How? Just use all time F/5.6, and ready. A little landscape, wildlife, street with telephoto, etc. A powerful but light kit to bring in some excursion or vacation.

Because I never used more than 24MP, that's why I was thinking the A7RIV: taking advantage that I try out for the first time a mirrorless camera, why not start big? The camera costs $3,200.

But now that the Panasonic S5 is out, it's tempting. It would be $3,500 for the camera and lenses mentioned above. It sounds interesting.

Now, here goes the questions for you, the experts:

• The S5 EVF is weak, compared with the Sony A7RIV, which is 5.7M dots. Never used an EVF. Is this so bad or acceptable, not for professional use?
• What really Dual Native Iso is doing with the camera? Is it like iso invariant, I mean excellent performance? Or even better?
• Last. About IQ, how do you compare M10 with the S5?   

 Thank you as always for your time. Please share your feedback with me.

Have a great day

[Archiver]

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On 9/6/2020 at 1:30 AM, Dennis said:

Now, here goes the questions for you, the experts:

• The S5 EVF is weak, compared with the Sony A7RIV, which is 5.7M dots. Never used an EVF. Is this so bad or acceptable, not for professional use?
• What really Dual Native Iso is doing with the camera? Is it like iso invariant, I mean excellent performance? Or even better?
• Last. About IQ, how do you compare M10 with the S5? 

Viewfinder res depends on what you're used to, and whether you're using manual lenses or autofocus. Personally, I'd be fine with the S5 viewfinder, partially because I tend to use the LCD screen with mirrorless cameras, and because I use the EVF if I'm using autofocus lenses.

Dual native ISO means that the sensor has two base ISO's. These base ISO's are where the camera has optimal noise performance, colour and dynamic range. As ISO gets higher, the sensor will show more noise, until you reach the second base ISO. Then noise performance and dynamic range goes back to 'normal'. This feature is a huge boon to people who shoot in low light situations. The S1 has dual native ISO, although this feature isn't mentioned in Panasonic's marketing literature.

As far as IQ goes, we can only compare the S1 with M10 at this time. This is slightly challenged by neither camera being able to use the other's lenses optimally. The S1 doesn't work too well with M lenses, and you can't adapt L mount lenses to the M10, so you can't do uncompromised comparisons with the same lenses. DXO says the S1 has 14.5 stops of dynamic range, and highlights have a lot of room for recovery, and the M10 is about 13.2. The M10 seems to blow highlights fairly easily, and the S1 seems to be better in that regard. This is academic at this point as I am only going by what others have reported, and I don't have the personal experience to be able to make fully informed judgements.

 

[Dennis]

Thank you so much for your answers!

24 minutes ago, Archiver said:

Viewfinder res depends on what you're used to, and whether you're using manual lenses or autofocus.

With the S5 I would use AF lenses only. So I don't think the poor it's an issue. 

26 minutes ago, Archiver said:

Dual native ISO means that the sensor has two base ISO's

This is a really awesome features. Do you know which these two values are? Such as 100 and 6400 for example? 🤷‍♂️

27 minutes ago, Archiver said:

DXO says the S1 has 14.5 stops of dynamic range, and highlights have a lot of room for recovery, and the M10 is about 13.2

Good to know. 14.5 is a lot. 

 

[LocalHero1953]

People home in on the resolution of a viewfinder. That is only part of the story - a lesser part IMO. Once you have a resolution as good as, say, the CL's, the following are more important:

- Lag: how well does the EVF keep up with real life. If this is poor, you will never capture that decisive moment.

- Speed/refresh: how well does it display movement. If it jumps and stutters you will not see what is really happening.

- Blackout: no blackout or freeze after taking a shot, otherwise you will miss the next shot.

Sorry, I can't answer for the S5!

Edited September 7, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, Dennis said:

Do you know which these two values are? Such as 100 and 6400 for example? 

According to press releases, it's 640 and 4000 ISO in VLOG (video). It's probably around 200 and 1600 for stills. That may seem confusing, but it's because ISO is calculated differently for still and moving images. Oversimplifying: the grey point is different, so moving images have more "headroom" for over-exposure (but less room to push the shadows). That's not a new thing, by the way. Back in the day, motion picture B&W films like Kodak Super Double-X were rated differently for stills and motion picture, even though they were essentially the same emulsion. Colour films would have been rated differently as well, but they used different processes and emulsions..

The way dual ISO works is that there are two processing paths in the sensor, prior to the analog (voltage) to digital conversion. Think of it as using two different scales on a voltmeter, or different pre-amps in audio (line vs. mic).

[Dennis]

Got it, thank you for the explanation! It's very interested. First native ISO set at 200 is fine and helpful. It's my base ISO on my M10 too and all my setting such sunny16 and similar techniques are based on 200 ISO. But I would love to have the second native ISO set at 3200 or 6400 ideally. 1600 it's so and so, IMO.

I use often 3200 ISO, and have it as native ISO would be awesome. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Phtonstophotos doesn't have data on the S5 yet, but Panasonic has always had a dual gain support, with a boost at 800 ISO.  Here's the chart.  What we're hearing could be marketer-speak for something like this.  The catch is that at the "second base ISO" things don't back to "normal," but they do improve by a stop.

[Dennis]

Does Sony Alpha cameras has it? Or it's just Panasonic?

It's an interesting concept the Dual Native ISO, and in some occasions, I guess very helpful. I never heard about it before. In my case, that I usually use a very few ISO values, it could be a game changer to reduce noise in High Iso

[Chaemono]

S1 doesn't have the dual native ISO found in the S5 according to this video at 3:27

 

[Chaemono]

Am 3.9.2020 um 13:51 schrieb Chaemono:

I haven’t seen side by side comparisons of the Lumix FF bodies with M lenses vs. the Sony or the Nikon cameras. There have been tests of the S1R with M lenses vs. SL2 and the SL2 did better partly due to thinner cover glass on the sensor. Sony has thicker cover glass than the Z6/7 but I haven’t found any information on the thickness of the cover glass in the S1/R. If Panasonic is smart, they should use a thinner cover glass in the S5.

S1R's sensor cover glass layers thicker than Z7's at roughly 1.45 millimeters. Arguably, S5 may be the same.

 https://petapixel.com/2019/09/04/panasonic-s1r-teardown-a-peek-inside-panasonic-full-frame-mirrorless/

These layers of sensor cover glass have a combined thickness of roughly 1.45 millimeters. This is thinner than the EOS R, but a decent sight thicker then the Z7’s 1.1mm, the thinnest we’ve come across yet. This makes the S1R a poor candidate for legacy Leica lens performance despite the partnership with Leica, meaning this camera is another excellent candidate for our Ultra-Thin filter modification service.

Edit - Kolari Vision offers an ultra-thin filter conversion for the S1, so they'll likely do so for the S5, too. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Chaemono

[Archiver]

It may be that the smaller size of the S5 might be to its detriment with regular size L mount lenses. The APO Summicrons balance nicely on large bodies like the SL/SL2 and S1 series cameras, but the S5 is about the same as the GH5. That's like putting a Leica 10-25mm f1.7 or Sigma 18-35 on a GH5, not the most balanced setup. Many of Sigma's L mount lenses are direct ports of large DSLR lenses, rather than smaller redesigns. The upcoming Panasonic f1.8 primes had better be small and light enough for the S5, and hopefully comparable with the Nikon f1.8 S primes for image quality.

Having said that, I often use lenses like the Sigma 18-35 on a midsize Canon DSLR, so it might not be a dealbreaker. Still very interested to get my hands on a S5 and see what it's like.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Archiver

[Chaemono]

The Summicron SL lenses are compact enough for the S5 is my guess.

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[Chaemono]

Just picked up a copy. It's tiny. My guess is, it will appeal to GH5 users and Panasonic won't even bother with a GH6. The installed L-mount base will therefore grow substantially. The question is, will one or two of those S5 users be looking to buy a second hand Summicron-SL to support prices.

[Archiver]

17 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Just picked up a copy. It's tiny. My guess is, it will appeal to GH5 users and Panasonic won't even bother with a GH6. The installed L-mount base will therefore grow substantially. The question is, will one or two of those S5 users be looking to buy a second hand Summicron-SL to support prices.

Please post your experiences with the S5, including image quality and high ISO performance, and autofocus performance with moving subjects. Congrats!

The GH5 users who will upgrade to this are likely to already be using full frame or aps-c lenses. I don't see primarily m43 lens owners moving to the S5 unless they ditch their m43 glass. I'm fortunate to have a range of m43 and Canon/Sigma lenses, and I have a Speedbooster XL for my G9, so I could conceivably run both systems at the same time. Just need to rustle up some money in a time when I'm not in a permitted industry. 🤬 Thanks, Daniel Andrews, thanks coronavirus.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[tom.w.bn]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

The question is, will one or two of those S5 users be looking to buy a second hand Summicron-SL to support prices.

Don't think so. The new-prices of the SL lenses are crazy and the used prices are still crazy. The upcoming three small L-mount primes shoul be interesting and let's not forget the very good Sigma lenses for L-mount.