Leica vs competitors

[Les]

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I have enjoyed reading the comparisons and reviews of for example the SL vs the SL2 and even some user comparisons between the M10 variants and about switching from M to SL.

Are there any comparisons between the SL and/or SL2 and for example the Nikon Z cameras or Panasonic/Lumix or the new Canon R5 or R6?

It would be useful to have Leica user perspective on this.  

Like SL2 contrast detection speed and accuracy vs Nikon and Canon Phase detection.  Noise comparisons at different ISOs.  Viewfinder comparisons/limitations, etc.

I can't blame Leica because the other brands compare against each other but do not include Leica, but as a user, not a collector, I would find this to be valuable information.

 

[anickpick]

The SL2 is a joy to handle and use. 

The interface is fantastic, far nicer then all the others.

Leica lenses still offer some qualities (how they draw) that I miss in most none Leica lenses. It is something that is visible in the pictures, but I do not think it can be measured.

The sensors and viewfinders of all recent cameras are easily good enough.

For CAF, face detection and tracking however the Sony, Canon and Nikon cameras are far superior. That is true for video and stills. Unfortunately.

Edited August 7, 2020 by anickpick

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[Sjz]

I played with, and used, a friends Sony R IV last weekend.

It is undoubtedly a very clever camera, and from the reviews, it definitely does some things better than the SL2.  In my opinion it does not have the feeling of quality you get from a Leica, I thought I was gong to be blown away by it, I wasn’t, it does not have the fit, finish - precision of build to match the SL2 (imho).
 

When I was researching, I didn’t find too many head to heads, what I did find was a rush of early example reviews of cameras when then not an awful lot after that.

[Photoworks]

understanding that no system is perfect for every application, the SL2 is a joy to use.

I have been using SL2 for 6 months now and it is the camera a go to most of the time. I have latest Sony cameras and Canon.

the shortcomings of SL2 are:

• Flash, any flash. The SF64 has bugs, every other flash system is Manual only.
• tether to a computer is not great, Lightroom is to slow and C1Pro does not recognize the camera, you can add DMG files and process them just like imported, but there is no copy correction applied from other shots
• Adapted lenses. The only non Leica adapter left is the sigma MC-21 that provides AF with EF mount. Not totally compatible since there are power issues on SL2. But I Still use the cine lenses on it and the Tilt-Shift lenses from canon.
• FOTOS app is not good

this can be improved over time.

Canon and Sony probably offer some better options, they have a bigger market and are more affordable. AF and lighting option are better on the Japanese .
I have tested Sony and canon lenses with the SL zooms and the image quality is similar. The SL Summicron lenses are very good. 

On the Sony I use my Leica-M lenses with an AF adapter, was is very nice with the Noctilux.

To me If you like photography the SL2 is a joy to use, just know your limitations. Sony and canon are good, but just a tool, nothing sexy.

[AZN]

I have and use the Leica SL (Typ601), Sony AR7II, Sony AR7IV.  The following dynamic range graphs for the cameras is instructive:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica SL (Typ 601),Leica SL2,Sony ILCE-7RM2,Sony ILCE-7RM4

Have also included the SL2 for comparison.

From my experience in everyday use, the SL is nicer to use due to its better "haptics", but the A7RIV is no slouch. Its shutter is much, much nicer than the "zip-zip" shutter on the AR7II and the grip, buttons and battery life are greatly improved.  Its body is also lighter, and in APSC mode (26 MPix) it works nicely with M lenses, with cropping of course.

Am still holding off getting an SL2 until the battery life issue is solved.  The SL battery easily lasts a day, but I have read repeatedly that with the current FW the SL2 drains them fast.

IMO, FWIW etc.

 

[caissa]

I think a lot of non-users of the SL2 find many problems with AF and batteries and you name it. Not really surprising. What is surprising is that most users of the SL2 can very well live with these “problems”. AF is good enough for most demands, very good actually for what I need it. For my usage pattern batteries last at least two days and for long time usage of the camera of several days I use external USB PD power banks. With that I have all possibilities that I was missing in the SL (the predecessor) or with my other cameras (CaNikon And older Sony). Also I can use all lenses in all burst modes without being limited in any way.

So people talking about waiting for a better camera or firmware just show that they have no practical experience with the SL2. I use it since December and find it the best camera I ever had. Of course the lenses are very important, probably even more important than the camera alone. And the lens selection is now great and gets even better every month.

So for me “test reviews” are not important, as they are usually from non-users and done on a very superficial level.

I use AF for getting some images, but most users/testers seem to make fotos just for using the latest AF features. The resulting fotos look correspondingly. Very boring, and usually not getting the crucial moment. Not even trying to wait for the crucial moment. (Too busy testing the latest stupid features, sorry).

So more test reviews will not necessarily give more real insight. 

If the testers are important for you, then you are probably simply best served with these cameras. (R5 is the latest craze, a7Riv, etc.) I cannot explain the differences to everybody, but most Leica users know intuitively what the differences are. But Leica users are a minority, and many more test reviews will probably not change this, ever.

[caissa]

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I have an example that maybe many can understand. Music, stereo equipment. My amplifier is just good enough for the size of my rooms and my loudspeaker boxes. Of course I could buy a much bigger one with a much better signal to noise ratio. But it would not help me to get a better experience until I would also replace the loudspeakers by bigger boxes and mainly the rooms by switching to a bigger building with specially treated surfaces/walls.

This is it with AF. Of course for special use a faster AF could be useful, or a battery that lasts several days as in DSLRs. But the current limits of the SL2 are exactly within my usage range. With a wider range I would simply not win anything. 

And more important I would lose the possibility to use native SL lenses. This would be a big loss and not worth it. I hope you can understand that.

Edited August 7, 2020 by caissa

[Gavin Cato]

I shoot weddings and have a full sony kit with 2 x a9's & a a7r3 and practically every sony lens worth owning.

The autofocus on the Sony's is so far ahead of the sl2 it's really hard to put it into words. With the full time object tracking, you leave it in afc the whole time, half press shutter on any object, and it figures out instantly if it's a fixed object, a face/eye/person or animal etc. and stays locked onto it like glue. You never need to move a af point, the notion of having af points doesn't really exist when you run it like this.

It's brutally effective and a wonderful wedding camera where you don't want to be wasting time on camera settings.

However I far prefer using the Leica. The SL2 just feels beautiful to use. It feels wonderful in the hands. The evf is amazing, and the longer I use it the more I'm figuring out how to be faster with the right af modes. It'll never match the Sony but I'll get it as close as I can.

The IQ on the SL2 is significantly better than the A9/a7r3 and I think it's even better than my Pentax 645z. The first prints I've made from the sl2 pop off the paper.

The lenses I've used on the SL are ridiculously good and the 90/2 in particular.  I thought the Sony 85 1.4gm was good until I used the sl 90.

I'm also well versed on canon gear - in the end I think the canon & sony etc. will always outdo the leica for fancy little features & af but the SL2 is a much nicer shooting experience and end result.

[CharlesL]

The "cropped medium format" cameras - Fuji GFX series and Hasselblad X1D ii - are competitors to the SLs. The comparisons will be mixed, that is, notably superior in some respects and deficient in other respects.

 

[Simone_DF]

My experience:

- Subpar autofocus. Good luck focusing on low contrast subjects. This was even confirmed to me by a Leica rep - I still have the email exchange. Oh and forget eye autofocus.

- Terrible interface. Yes. I'll say it again: terrible interface. Every time you have to delve into some menu to select the proper AF settings (ie face recognition, "sports" mode, "person walking a constant speed", etc) and fine tune them to your current shooting environment. All other systems, you just depress the shutter and it magically work, see the post above by Gavin. 

- Battery life is a joke.

- Lenses are all big and bulky when compared to other brands. But, to be fair, both Panasonic and Sigma have announced smaller lenses, so it's a matter of time 🙂

- I was not impressed with iso 6400 performance compared to both my M10 and my Sony.

Now the good:

- Build quality. Feels solid and well done.

- EVF is good, but it's at the same level as all other brands. 

- Image quality is fantastic. I liked the shots I got from the SL2 much more than Sony's. But I still like the output from the M10 more than the SL2.

 

In the end I sold the camera after a month. I may jump back when the SL3 is released, if they manage to fix the issues, because despite the limitations I really liked image quality (when you nailed focus...). But right now it looks more like a polished "beta" rather than a finished product. Or more or less like the A7II for Sony: nice improvements on the basic concept, but not quite there yet.

[caissa]

Many users have several cameras - agreed, not the cheapest method. An SL2 with the latest SL lenses for top image quality and “slower” topics. Also for using M lenses with IBIS, or S lenses, or R or Contax that I still like to use from time to time.. Also for the weekend and for concerts, etc. Or private events. Sometimes also a black and white M.

An A9 or similar camera (or a Canon 5DSR or now maybe R5) for action and similar topics, the professional stuff that must be done to earn money like sports events. Or when flash is very important (a S1R is also very useful for that). Where fotografy is a no brainer and a no brainer camera helps.

I find this a useful method. And when I feel the SL or SL2 can not cope, I simply use another camera.  (And do not need to get angry at the SL or SL2 or Leica). This is not new, I always worked that way. I never had a single camera that was the best at all topics. I had the impression many photographers worked that way.

 

Maybe another important point. I avoid judging “foreign” cameras. I need to use a camera a while (a year) before I am sure I know enough about it. And typically also the firmware improves during that time.

In the same way that I would never judge a painting before the paint is completely dry ...   (with oil paintings this can take a long time).

 

Subpar, what a terrible way to judge a product or person. I am over 50, so I am subpar for most activities compared to many 20 year olds. Humans are subpar to most animals in this world in one way or another. (Whales, dogs, horses, frogs, ants, birds, you name it). Usually it is not crucial where we are subpar, but where we achieve something despite this. A disgustive judgement. And somehow useless ...

Edited August 8, 2020 by caissa

[caissa]

Subpar, all my cameras of all brands are subpar. After a few years that’s it.....  Still I took pictures with them that I could not repeat today with the latest cameras. Or just with some effort. So they are now subpar, but still in a way unbeaten (for me).

I think of Ernst Haas. Many of his pics are simply “subpar” regarding resolution, sharpness etc.. Still I like them very much and do not really know how to get the equivalent with modern (better) equipment.

Edited August 8, 2020 by caissa

[Hendo]

I have used both Leicas and Canon/Nikon/Sony. I have also own a Audi and a Toyota. I think it is comparable. The Toyota is nice to drive, but will never be like a Audi. Just like Leica vs the Japanese camera makers. The Leica has a completely different solidity and quality feeling compared to the C/N/S. Another thing are the emotions/feelings (or whatever you would like to call it) when photographing, those emotions/feelings are completely different when photographing with Leica vs C/N/S even though the image quality is almost the same between Leicas and high end C/N/S.

[Hendo]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

My experience:

- Terrible interface. Yes. I'll say it again: terrible interface. Every time you have to delve into some menu to select the proper AF settings (ie face recognition, "sports" mode, "person walking a constant speed", etc) and fine tune them to your current shooting environment. All other systems, you just depress the shutter and it magically work, see the post above by Gavin. 

I recommend using presets, then you will have a very good starting point and fine tuning takes much less time

[Simone_DF]

4 minutes ago, Hendo said:

I recommend using presets, then you will have a very good starting point and fine tuning takes much less time

I tried that at the beginning. Didn’t really work for me. I kept forgetting which one I was using. 
Let’s be honest here: this constant fine tuning of focus modes is a mess. Correct me if I’m wrong but nobody else in the industry does it. And for good reasons. 

[Gavin Cato]

15 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I tried that at the beginning. Didn’t really work for me. I kept forgetting which one I was using. 
Let’s be honest here: this constant fine tuning of focus modes is a mess. Correct me if I’m wrong but nobody else in the industry does it. And for good reasons. 

In terms of the settings in the tracking section I can't remember the exact figures I plugged in but I have it working well. I basically use face tracking when I'm relatively close up to my couples and the tracking mode when further away with touch screen focus off and locked to center point and using focus and recompose

I'm pretty sure the sl2 does do eye autofocus it just doesn't appear it is in the evf. The files with face focus on definitely have the eyes very well focussed. 
 

the Sony is definitely better here but I’m managing. The lenses are worth it.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Gavin Cato

[Hendo]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

I tried that at the beginning. Didn’t really work for me. I kept forgetting which one I was using. 
Let’s be honest here: this constant fine tuning of focus modes is a mess. Correct me if I’m wrong but nobody else in the industry does it. And for good reasons. 

Constant fine tuning of focus mode - do not understand - what you you mean?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

These types of topics always get a bit messy. Fair enough. I don't like my decisions being criticised. And I need to remember that different usage scenarios will get different user opinions. For example, I started shooting weddings when AF was hardly a thing for many. I happily shot with a pair of M9's when they came out for a couple of years and never felt like I missed a shot because of them. Went to Sony to see what I was missing and quickly switched to the SL and never felt an issue. But manual focus and exposure is like breathing to me. I don't even think about it. Others mileage may vary.

I currently own cameras including the SL, SL2, S1R, Z7, A9, A7R3, EM1II, X1DII, S007 and Fuji XT3. All of them are brilliant. All of them are awful. Depends on what you expect and what you're doing with them.

The SL has the poorest tracking AF of the lot. Then the SL2 and Panasonic. If you need tracking focus as a primary thing the SL2 is a terrible choice. Anything else is better and in the case of a Sony or Canon, vastly better. They hang on like a rabid dog. personally I use CAF once or twice a year. It's just not that important. The SL2 SAF is fantastic. You do need to adjust to getting contrast detect to play nice but it's easy to do and the -6EV is fantastic.

Leica flash support is woeful. This is Leica's biggest flaw for me. Drives me nutty, sometimes. These guys just need to stop and open up the protocol to everyone so we can get either an Elinchrom, Godox or Profoto trigger. I mostly shoot in manual so it's workable. And I use medium format in studio so it doesn't matter but I really want something better than the SF60 when I travel. Or at least the option.

I don't tether much but it's crap. And charging a fee for Fotos on an iPad is disgusting as far as I'm concerned. Not something Hasselblad does with focus. A cheap and nasty money grab and they should be ashamed. Plus it doesn't work very well.

It's stupidly expensive. But you can afford it or you can't. Just don't think the extra cash means better images.

That's the worst of it. Battery life is average at best but better than Fuji of Hasselblad and about the same as the Z7. The sensor is actually very good for 47MP but not class leading (Nikon). Colours are better than the Z7 and Sony though, especially skin tones (Nikon Z7 are yuck). It's on the big side and it's heavy. The 'blad, Z7 and S1R feel better in the hand (or at least my hand). Sensor readout is good. the A9 is better but the Sl2 is very useable with silent shutter. You still lose flash support though, like everyone else. There's no tilt screen. Not such a big deal if Fotos worked reliably but it doesn't. Buffer is fine but not class leading.

Now for the good stuff. Where the SL2 is as good or better than those around it. It's responsive. Much more than the Sony when it comes to playback and zooming in on images. The touch experience is fantastic. The shutter, EVF, build quality and weather sealing are class leading. The A7S3 has a higher res VF but apparently it's not better??. The menus are by far the best in the industry. Buttons are very good but the SL was better. The quick menu is fabulous (makes up for the buttons a bit). Profiles are well implemented. Obviously the lenses are OK!! And now we have a good set of options from not only Leica but also Sigma and Panasonic.

The SL2 is arguably the best stills/video hybrid on the market with a high res sensor and 5K 29.97/4K 60P recording and access to Leica's cine lenses.

Someone said there were no lens adaptors except the Leica ones and the MC21. Not true. Kipon make a huge range of dumb adaptors for nearly everything. And the SL is the best mirrorless platform for M, R and S lenses as well. I found the Novoflex adaptors for Nikon G pretty easily so may be out of production but still available if you look.

Finally there' the X factor. Despite the good and bad which camera is the one you want to pick up? For me the X1D leads. The SL2 is next followed by the Panasonics and the Nikon. For me the Sony is last. Incredible technology and great results that suck all the enjoyment out of the photographic process. The SL2 is a great user experience. I prefer the original SL buttons but the SL2 shape. It's a fun camera to use and despite some real issues, for 99% of us it won't be the camera that stops us getting the shot. On paper it's bested by many other cameras. In the hand, not so much. Depends on how you weigh the shooting experience versus the need for the latest technology.

Hope that helps.

Gordon

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, Hendo said:

Constant fine tuning of focus mode - do not understand - what you you mean?

User switching between Face detection / action / other modes.

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Hallo,

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