Parting with my S system is a difficult decision

[John Smith]

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1 hour ago, mgrayson3 said:

006!

Focused on the door, positioned the center point over the lock, shot-AF-shot. Made a two frame focus stack 🙂

 

I was just looking at 006s. S Magazine has a recent feature dealing with the S2 and the photographs are gorgeous. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by John Smith

[setuporg]

Since the thread morphed into why we are keeping our S systems, I got an M10M and M10R so far, so I guess I can carve out a whole S3 sensor out of those two!:)

I love the way they render, best in class.  Reid reports both as exceptional and Jono got M10R for himself.  This all augurs well for the S3 sensor and the trade-up program ends in October, but I'm not yet feeling the $10K difference for trading 007 up for S3 is justified.

Edited September 1, 2020 by setuporg

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[xiaubauu2009]

2 hours ago, setuporg said:

Since the thread morphed into why we are keeping our S systems, I got an M10M and M10R so far, so I guess I can carve out a whole S3 sensor out of those two!:)

I love the way they render, best in class.  Reid reports both as exceptional and Jono got M10R for himself.  This all augurs well for the S3 sensor and the trade-up program ends in October, but I'm not yet feeling the $10K difference for trading 007 up for S3 is justified.

just wish they can give the m10R or M to have some kind of image stabilization... I might feel more confident, cause I fair rather poorly even only a 24mp M10p

[tom0511]

It is kind of interesting...I do not doubt that the m10r has a great sensor, but I am really not sure if it is SUCH a step forward to compared to the M10 as long as you do not want/need 24MP. I have checked out a M10r for some weeks and liked it, but frienkly the biggest point besides resolution was the quiet shutter (compared to my original M10) for me.

Would be interesting to see how the sensor compares directly to the S3, but I can not believe that it delivers identical results.

Then there are the lenses and the effect of the larger sensor and the question how good rangefinder focusing works for longer focal lengths, specially for high resolution sensors/images.

For my part, even owning the SL2 and some nice SL-lenses I have decided to not give up medium format. I have been in a long debate with myself though, if I should stay with x1d(II)-system or with the Leica S system. Here size and weight/ potability are important factors.

My pos/neg list is as follows:

x1dII: pos: great compact body size, light weight lenses (good compromise between speed and weight/size and still optical very good), very nice user interface, multi AF points, AF more reliable than S

           con: still a little slowish (start up, blackout)

S: pos: just most beautiful rendering lenses, nice OVF

     cons: only center AF, AF-area too large, AF unreliable specially for portraits, quite big and heavy, as of today body very high price (I mean I can buy 3 x1dII bodies and a lens for the price of a S3)

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by tom0511

[ynp]

11 hours ago, setuporg said:

Since the thread morphed into why we are keeping our S systems, I got an M10M and M10R so far, so I guess I can carve out a whole S3 sensor out of those two!:)

I love the way they render, best in class.  Reid reports both as exceptional and Jono got M10R for himself.  This all augurs well for the S3 sensor and the trade-up program ends in October, but I'm not yet feeling the $10K difference for trading 007 up for S3 is justified.

The trade up made sense for me because my S2p is no longer supported. I tried to save money and find a second hand 007. No luck , only S2’s are being sold locally. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by ynp

[setuporg]

9 hours ago, tom0511 said:

It is kind of interesting...I do not doubt that the m10r has a great sensor, but I am really not sure if it is SUCH a step forward to compared to the M10 as long as you do not want/need 24MP. I have checked out a M10r for some weeks and liked it, but frienkly the biggest point besides resolution was the quiet shutter (compared to my original M10) for me.

What Jono said is basically, in my own reading,

-- You get an extra step of ISO
-- Your get better DR and highlights are not blown.  This is huge for Leica.  It might be worth the $10K trade-up difference from 007 for some.
What Reid said is, in my own reading,
-- You get better details out of all lenses.  40MPs resolve all lenses better.  Even the old ones.

Obviously M10M is such a killer and M10R is rendering more like I used to expect from S, this all augurs well for S3.

Edited September 1, 2020 by setuporg

[setuporg]

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24 minutes ago, ynp said:

No luck , only S2’s are being sold locally. 

They're more into Navalny these days "locally" than photography...:(. I hope he survives, wins, and Moscow revives and gets its own proper Leica Store.:)

Edited September 1, 2020 by setuporg

[tom0511]

have you looked at Reids ISO comparison? you win one f-stop if you downsize the m10r files to m10 resolution. At 100% without downsizing M10 looks slightly less noisy.

Better detail out of all lenses...I would agree if you print bigger than 24MP allow.

S lens still beat M lenses, except maybe the 50 APO.

I can see that the m10r is a nice upgrade to M10, but I dont see it make the m10r become competition for the S system.

 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

you win one f-stop if you downsize the m10r files to m10 resolution. At 100% without downsizing M10 looks slightly less noisy.

In other words, you get less noise at the same output size. You also get more detail at the same output size. Sounds like a win-win.

I find it misleading when different cameras are compared at "100%". It makes sense, in a way, for those of us who instinctively click on the 1:1 button in post to check focus, but it isn't relevant to how we view the final print/image.

[tom0511]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

In other words, you get less noise at the same output size. You also get more detail at the same output size. Sounds like a win-win.

I find it misleading when different cameras are compared at "100%". It makes sense, in a way, for those of us who instinctively click on the 1:1 button in post to check focus, but it isn't relevant to how we view the final print/image.

You get more detail at the same output size if you print big. I doubt you see any difference if you print small to medium size.

My SL2 has 47MP, my S007 36MP and I constantly find the output of the S007 slightly ahead.

I wonder how many forum members have compared and rated the noise behaviour and detail of M10 vs M10r based on a print at same size, and not based on peaking on pixel level on screen? Anybody wants to chime in, who has compared prints?

(nothing against M10r, if I had to buy a M and did not own a M10 allready I would choose the M10r, but I find the differences a bit overhyped)

[BernardC]

33 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

I find the differences a bit overhyped

I agree that the difference may be immaterial. Even if it is significant, the noisier picture may have more impact.

The obvious parallel is music, we all acknowledge that a distorted sound can be very effective.

[setuporg]

Preserving highlights is actually very material.  It obviates the need for ETTR and makes OOC shots easier.  It actually could be a game changer.

[tom0511]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

Preserving highlights is actually very material.  It obviates the need for ETTR and makes OOC shots easier.  It actually could be a game changer.

every bit of preserving highlights is welcome. An effective exposure metering system would help as well (for anybody who likes using A mode/shoots images in changing light). I am sure the m10r is a great camera. For me the M is the compact system, with maximum simple user interface, but with not so accurate framing, focusing, metering etc. Its the camera where I can fully connect to the subject and catch the situation.

If I am seeking for the maximized shot in regards of framing, tonality, detail, I would rather use the SL2 or a medium format camera. With more accurate viewfinder, with more accurate exposure metering and with accurate focusing for any focal length, and if necessary also DOF-check.

Thats why I have decided for me I am fine with the M10 at the moment for what I do, and why a M10r could not replace my medium format camera at the moment. The Thing I miss most is the silent shutter compared to the P or R. But thats me and I can see how people who want the max IQ out of the smalles possible system the M10r certainly is a great option.

anyways, I just realize I went off topic, sorry for that. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by tom0511

[John Smith]

17 hours ago, tom0511 said:

My SL2 has 47MP, my S007 36MP and I constantly find the output of the S007 slightly ahead.

How so? Just curious. I haven't done such a comparison.

[tom0511]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb John Smith:

How so? Just curious. I haven't done such a comparison.

midtones, skincolor, transition between focused plane and background, 3d look, all very subjective factors, to me SL2 images look technically very good, no complains, and IMO best of FF, but I feel to have more S images where I feel "wow".

[setuporg]

3 hours ago, tom0511 said:

midtones, skincolor, transition between focused plane and background, 3d look, all very subjective factors, to me SL2 images look technically very good, no complains, and IMO best of FF, but I feel to have more S images where I feel "wow".

Exactly.  Same here.