Sigma 16/30/56 for APS-C sensors

[nicci78]

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Ok more testing today. 
56mm DC DN AF is definitely worst than native TL lenses : slower and less reliable. What a shame. 
It is usable of course. But looks like old contrast focusing algorithms, combined with slow stepping motor. 
Slower than TL60 is not a good thing at all. 
I think that it lacks Depth of Defocus used by Panasonic and Leica. Panasonic has not been clear if they share it with Sigma or not. 

[Boojay]

13 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Ok more testing today. 
56mm DC DN AF is definitely worst than native TL lenses : slower and less reliable. What a shame. 
 
 

So,  your opinion following testing with your copy.  

Whereas I find my copy to be on par with the 35TL as far as AF speed is concerned which is my only native prime other than FF 50/90 SL cron's.  Having said all of that I am not sitting with a timer or taking particular test shots, just real world shooting where I have not found the Sigma lacking in any way.

Just in case I was deluding myself I just sat CL with the 56mm Sigma on my kitchen table and using touch af had a play around, then swapped over to the 35TL, I found it hard to perceive any notable difference.  Maybe I have a dodgy copy of the 35TL😁!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[nicci78]

I am mainly taking photograph of my (very fast) daughter. And/or in very dim environment. 
I owned every TL lenses at one time. 
The fastest AF wise : TL 18 and the slowest TL60.

So I got quite experience about how AF should behave with the CL. Since I use mine since January 2018.
 

AF-S :     
- Spot AF is unusable. Too slow for 56mm. 
- Face detect is unreliable. Because it can jump all over the place from time to time. Mostly ok. But from time to time, it will hunt back and forth. Typically not Depth from defocus technology. What a shame.   
- Field AF has same problem as Face detect. Because Face detect revert to field, when no face is detected. 
- 1 point AF is the most reliable. It works fine and quite fast. But it is not the fastest. 
- pursuit AF works too. But CL is not really made for that. 

AF-C : don’t know yet, since I rarely use it with CL. 
 

Is it a problem with my copy ? I am not so sure. I think that Sigma 56mm rely only on contrast detect. Whereas TL lenses on CL or SL rely on DFD tech. 
Hence all the issues. 
 

The good is that DFD tech is a share component of L-mount alliance. Panasonic said that it is up to the member to implement the tech within their lens and body. 
It seems that Sigma did not make the job yet. Because fp still rely on plain contrast detect AF. 
 

So maybe a firmware update can solve the issue ? 

Edited September 12, 2020 by nicci78

[Le Chef]

14 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I am mainly taking photograph of my (very fast) daughter. And/or in very dim environment. 
I owned every TL lenses at one time. 
The fastest AF wise : TL 18 and the slowest TL60.

So I got quite experience about how AF should behave with the CL. Since I use mine since January 2018.
 

AF-S :     
- Spot AF is unusable. Too slow for 56mm. 
- Face detect is unreliable. Because it can jump all over the place from time to time. Mostly ok. But from time to time, it will hunt back and forth. Typically not Depth from defocus technology. What a shame.   
- Field AF has same problem as Face detect. Because Face detect revert to field, when no face is detected. 
- 1 point AF is the most reliable. It works fine and quite fast. But it is not the fastest. 
- pursuit AF works too. But CL is not really made for that. 

AF-C : don’t know yet, since I rarely use it with CL. 
 

Is it a problem with my copy ? I am not so sure. I think that Sigma 56mm rely only on contrast detect. Whereas TL lenses on CL or SL rely on DFD tech. 
Hence all the issues. 
 

The good is that DFD tech is a share component of L-mount alliance. Panasonic said that it is up to the member to implement the tech within their lens and body. 
It seems that Sigma did not make the job yet. Because fp still rely on plain contrast detect AF. 
 

So maybe a firmware update can solve the issue ? 

Reading what you have written, I think you’re confused by what the camera does and what the lens does. Maybe you could show us some images of things and people you have shot to demonstrate your sample of one experience.

[oldwino]

I've got a 56mm lens coming to me on Monday. Will it be a slow AF or fast AF version? 

[gteague]

31 minutes ago, oldwino said:

I've got a 56mm lens coming to me on Monday. Will it be a slow AF or fast AF version? 

only you can tell .... /guy

[jmschuh]

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A typical nicci78 post. Always very excited, with him everything is always different than with others. And the day after tomorrow he has a completely opposite opinion.

Sometimes the CL is the worst camera, sometimes the best. Now it is a Sigma lens, what will it be tomorrow? I have not been able to take nicci78 seriously for a long time.

And for everyone else:

I have the Sigma 56mm f1.4, and the autofocus speed is on the level of the 18-56mm f3.5-5.6.
I am very satisfied and will buy the 16mm and the 30mm lens.

After several comparisons I am now thinking that the Leica TL lenses are not worth their money and with the 18mm, 35mm and 18-56mm I even think that these are not Leica optical calculations, they are just too bad for that.

I hope the rumors are true and Panasonic will also make L-Mount with APS-C. Then, besides the very good Sigma optics, there will probably be some decent zooms with image stabilization and Leica can recycle their own lenses. The 35mm, the 60mm and the 55-135 are reasonably good, but you only have to look at Fujifilm, where the same lenses are even better and much cheaper. The whole TL line does not live up to the name Leica. Leica M lenses perfect, Leica SL lenses are perfect and S lenses are perfekt, but the TL lenses are much worse than the cheaper price would suggest.

[AdHox]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I am mainly taking photograph of my (very fast) daughter. And/or in very dim environment. 
[...]
AF-C : don’t know yet, since I rarely use it with CL. 

Okay, against my better judgement, I’ll bite.

What am I missing? The subject for your images is moving (very fast) but you’re using AF-S rather than AF-C; why?

[nicci78]

4 hours ago, AdHox said:

Okay, against my better judgement, I’ll bite.

What am I missing? The subject for your images is moving (very fast) but you’re using AF-S rather than AF-C; why?

Because it is worst with AF-C. Contrast detect of CL is not really made for AF-C. Better get a proper phase detect AF. 
And in my experience. It is okay to use AF-S for this kind of photos. If it can acquire focus instantly. If not ? It is a problem. 
56mm can do it. But sometimes, it can’t. This is this kind of uncertainty that makes it difficult to use. 
 

Another point. When using AF-C with CL+TL lenses. I always got the impression that the motor will wear way faster. It makes such a constant noise. 

[nicci78]

7 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Reading what you have written, I think you’re confused by what the camera does and what the lens does. Maybe you could show us some images of things and people you have shot to demonstrate your sample of one experience.

I will try to make a video of the CL screen. It will be better. Because it is not consistent. That depends of the mood of the lens. 
That’s what I hate. It is random. 
 

But when it goes bad, I can see it hunting back and forth like a madman. So better to show you a video of the rear screen. 
 

But it does not happen with CL on tripod with static object. Only on handheld mode  

Just have to find a way to film it with my iPhone on one hand and the CL on the other, at the right time. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by nicci78

[nicci78]

6 hours ago, jmschuh said:

 

A typical nicci78 post. Always very excited, with him everything is always different than with others. And the day after tomorrow he has a completely opposite opinion.

 

Love/hate relationship. There are some thing that I hate about CL, and some that I love. 
After using it for a long time.
At the beginning you can make compromises over some problem, until the day you can’t. 

Is it totally normal behaviour. That’s why you are seeing cameras in the used market. One day you get bored and sell it.

Obviously you like it first. Then you finished to dislike it. And let it go. Same for every kind of relationship. 
 

Then I never sugarcoat my sayings. It is what it is. If any brand makes something I dislike, I will told them so. I am not a fanboy of any kind. 
So it is black or white. No compromise. I hate when someone says you can jump some loops to make it usable. 
Sorry but I bought stuff to make my life easier not the contrary. 
 

Then really I don’t need to defend myself.
56mm DC DN AF is the worst in an L-mount lens I ever use on my CL. It is a fact.   
It can be my copy.  
It can be how people perceived the speed of AF. Some people saying Leica T AF is okay, always puzzled me. It is not OK at all. 

So I will try another copy of 56mm to be sure. 
But I will not keep a lens, that make my CL feels like a T. 
 

 

[Mike1974]

With all "these problems" with the 56mm , I fell I have to return it also LOL.

It's a bit slow comparing to the 30mm but i'don't find it much different from the TL 18-56 also. 

I don't use anyway to go the Afghanistan for a photoshoot and sell the photos to National Geographic. 

Good Sunday to everyone

 

[Marac]

I have all 3 Sigma lenses 16/30/56 They are actually so good, my Wife has taken them along with the CL leaving me an emotional wreck, however.....

I did manage to console myself with an M9M  I have owned one before but had to let it go sadly, I am so happy to be getting this camera back (ID-53 sensor & under 5000 shots)

I feel the Sigma lenses do have a warmer cast, I compared them with the Contax Zeis lenses that I personally find wonderful.

The other lens that fits nicely into the bag/group is the 45mm f2.8, full of character similar warmth too.

With regard to AF, I find the AF to be satisfactory and compared to the 35TL I see no difference really, my copies all seemed acceptably sharp even wide open but not in the same league as the 35TL for sharpness wide open.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Marac
Spilling misstake

[Boojay]

14 hours ago, Marac said:

I have all 3 Sigma lenses 16/30/56 They are actually so good, my Wife has taken them along with the CL leaving me an emotional wreck, however.....

I did manage to console myself with an M9M  I have owned one before but had to let it go sadly, I am so happy to be getting this camera back (ID-53 sensor & under 5000 shots)

I feel the Sigma lenses do have a warmer cast, I compared them with the Contax Zeis lenses that I personally find wonderful.

The other lens that fits nicely into the bag/group is the 45mm f2.8, full of character similar warmth too.

With regard to AF, I find the AF to be satisfactory and compared to the 35TL I see no difference really, my copies all seemed acceptably sharp even wide open but not in the same league as the 35TL for sharpness wide open.

Congrat's on your return to the M9M Marac, but hope your wife let's you play with the CL now and again.  

Totally agree on the warmer Sigma look ( I like it ),  your experience with AF and comparison to 35TL, totally mirrors mine, I've only have the 56mm but think I'd be happy with any of them.

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

Just dipped into this thread again. 🤔🤔🤔🤔. The range of strongly-held opinions on the factual performance of the same cameras and lenses is bizarre.

It reaffirms my long-held opinion that the only way to get information on a piece of equipment you might wish to buy is:

- Try it yourself.
- If you can't try it yourself, only trust reviews from people whose judgement you trust, on the basis of their previous reviews compared in hindsight to your own purchases.

[Guest]

I’m not seeing much of a range, just one person with a different opinion to everybody else.

[nicci78]

AF Speed is not the issue. It is the focusing reliability. In AF-S mode 56mm can lose track and hunt back and forth. Which makes it worst than TL lenses.

Because nobody really care to help me out. Just implying that what I experienced is in my imagination. Yesterday I troubleshooted the problem myself.

And now My Sigma 56mm AF works like a charm. But in pursuit mode or in AF-C mode, only. Something that never work well with any TL lenses. Therefore I only used them in AF-S mode. 

So what the matter ? 
- First I was wrong to want to use Sigma lenses like TL lenses. 
- Second, I then realised that the Sigma 56mm motor is ultra smooth and completed silent compare to Leica TL lenses one. It seems to me that Sigma motor is tailored for video use = not 100% fast and reliable to jump from one point to another at once. Something that is the forte of TL lenses. 
- Third, real world testing proved that 56mm works perfectly in AF-C or pursuit mode only. In these modes it is very fast and reliable to keep anything (static or in motion) in focus. Especially in pursuit mode. Which is totally silent, fast and reliable.
 

It now change the way I am using the CL :   
- just tap on the subject and it will be kept in focus. Almost no matter what. 
- no need to worry anymore about wandering focus point. Just select the subject with the focus point, wherever it may be. 
- no need to ever used any other AF mode. They are almost pointless now. 
- AF works in video mode now ! Hurray 

One downside : CL+ 56mm is draining the battery faster. But it is even worst in pursuit mode. It is what it is. I don’t really care. I got plenty of them. 
 

One more thing : 56mm IQ is awesome. To sum up it is the best 380€ never spent for my CL. 
Hopefully with fully functional AF, now. 


PS : just for comparison. I tried to use the Q2 in pursuit mode. Its lens has the same kind of motor than TL lenses. Just let’s say that it is workable. But not smooth at all. The motor is vibrating a lot and it is quite noisy. It seems to me that it can break at anytime. Guess that I will continue to use Q2 in AF-S mode. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by nicci78

[gteague]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

AF Speed is not the issue. It is the focusing reliability. In AF-S mode 56mm can lose track and hunt back and forth. Which makes it worst than TL lenses.

Because nobody really care to help me out. Just implying that what I experienced is in my imagination. Yesterday I troubleshooted the problem myself.

And now My Sigma 56mm AF works like a charm. But in pursuit mode or in AF-C mode, only. Something that never work well with any TL lenses. Therefore I only used them in AF-S mode. 

So what the matter ? 
- First I was wrong to want to use Sigma lenses like TL lenses. 
- Second, I then realised that the Sigma 56mm motor is ultra smooth and completed silent compare to Leica TL lenses one. It seems to me that Sigma motor is tailored for video use = not 100% fast and reliable to jump from one point to another at once. Something that is the forte of TL lenses. 
- Third, real world testing proved that 56mm works perfectly in AF-C or pursuit mode only. In these modes it is very fast and reliable to keep anything (static or in motion) in focus. Especially in pursuit mode. Which is totally silent, fast and reliable.
 

It now change the way I am using the CL :   
- just tap on the subject and it will be kept in focus. Almost no matter what. 
- no need to worry anymore about wandering focus point. Just select the subject with the focus point, wherever it may be. 
- no need to ever used any other AF mode. They are almost pointless now. 
- AF works in video mode now ! Hurray 

One downside : CL+ 56mm is draining the battery faster. But it is even worst in pursuit mode. It is what it is. I don’t really care. I got plenty of them. 
 

One more thing : 56mm IQ is awesome. To sum up it is the best 380€ never spent for my CL. 
Hopefully with fully functional AF, now. 


PS : just for comparison. I tried to use the Q2 in pursuit mode. Its lens has the same kind of motor than TL lenses. Just let’s say that it is workable. But not smooth at all. The motor is vibrating a lot and it is quite noisy. It seems to me that it can break at anytime. Guess that I will continue to use Q2 in AF-S mode. 

all i can say is that in several areas ('ultra smooth, silent', 'battery drain', 'iq is awesome') my experience using it on the cl and the s1 is not in line with your conclusions. my conclusions are not the opposite (although sigma admitted they are using old technology stepper motors (?) in these cheaper lenses and even in their 70 art macro on which they said they spent the production money on keeping it to the art started of iq and had to compromise by making it larger with a slower focus motor). imo the iq is _not_ awesome when compared to any of my other lenses and the 56mm would be towards the back third of the pack in that regards.

but everyone has different expectations and if you've made it work for you, i respect that. i found it an economical way to add a fast, compact, normal lens with more than adequate quality to my system and it's mounted on the s1 now where it seems to fit the best sizewise. my first try at that was the 45/2.8 and that one i did find slightly slow and clunky to focus (more apparent on the cl than the s1) and soft under a few conditions even stopped down 2 stops, so i sold it off. the 56/1.4 is much much better and cheaper (compared to the original 45/2.8 retail price) to boot.

/guy

Edited September 14, 2020 by gteague

[nicci78]

Stepping motor are exactly what you expect for mirrorless lenses in order for contrast based focusing to work best. Every brand are using them. Because mirrorless AF are either contrast detect only or phase + contrast detect combined. 

Canon RF STM & nanoUSM are stepping motors too. NanoUSM is just a fancier stepping motor. 

 

Now the speed and the smoothness of stepping motor just depend on several factors : size, number and weight of the focusing glass elements. 
Then the type of gears associated to the stepping motor : classical ring gears (slow and noisy), endless screw (fast and totally silent) etc    
And last the number of motors. Fancier SL lenses got 2 stepping motors working in tandem around two set of endless screws connected to 2 small and light focusing glass elements. TL lenses motors are not that kind  

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by nicci78

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[gteague]

i'm sure i used the wrong term. but the point i was trying to make is that panasonic optimizes their focus motors for smooth video and have done so in their better lenses for a long time now. and they continue to improve them to the point where a premium panny lens on a premium panny body has virtually zero focus lag in nearly every situation.

i had canon ef lense with the usm motor and they were so slow and clunky they set my teeth on edge. these were their 'L' lenses.

so what i'm saying is that panasonic optimizes many if not most of their lenses to be fast and smooth when focusing and none of the sigmas even come close.  here's a description on the panasonic lens page: 

• LENS FOCUSING - A double focus system combines a linear motor and stepping motor to achieve sensor drive at a maximum speed of 480 fps for fast, high-precision autofocus
  
  afaik, sigma doesn't have anything like this in any of their lenses, but i've only owned the budget ones so far.
  
  /guy