Do you crop a lot or not so much?

[farnz]

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40 minutes ago, Dr No said:

If someone wants to learn photography, put down the digital camera and pick up a film camera. 10 frames a roll, $2.50 a photo; it teaches a lot more about what photography actually is.

10 frames a roll would be a 6x7 camera on 120 roll film.  That's hardly a learner's rig.

Pete.

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[Dr No]

15 minutes ago, farnz said:

10 frames a roll would be a 6x7 camera on 120 roll film.  That's hardly a learner's rig.

Pete.

Oh, it really is a learners rig.

[farnz]

11 minutes ago, Dr No said:

Oh, it really is a learners rig.

Wouldn't it be better to learn with a rig that would be a little easier to learn from scratch that can, say, take responsibility for setting the exposure and focussing until the learner has understood the rudiments of composition and it is at a stage where they are ready to take that on too?   For example an inexpensive 135 mm camera which offers autofocus, autoexposure, and maybe programme mode as well as manual where pictures work out at a lot less than $2.50 each.

Once the learner has understood composition and mastered exposure and focussing then they'll be ready to tackle all-manual medium format and pay $2.50 per picture.

Pete.

[Dr No]

8 minutes ago, farnz said:

Wouldn't it be better to learn with a rig that would be a little easier to learn from scratch that can, say, take responsibility for setting the exposure and focussing until the learner has understood the rudiments of composition and it is at a stage where they are ready to take that on too?   For example an inexpensive 135 mm camera which offers autofocus, autoexposure, and maybe programme mode as well as manual where pictures work out at a lot less than $2.50 each.

Once the learner has understood composition and mastered exposure and focussing then they'll be ready to tackle all-manual medium format and pay $2.50 per picture.

Pete.

I didn't mean as a beginners rig. A rig for learning it most definitely is though. Large format too.

You learn a lot about photography as a whole with a medium or large format camera. Not just the technical, the act of deciding when to take a photo and what you choose to take a photo of, how you go about shooting—the things that matter in a photo. You have to approach these things entirely differently, with a lot of consideration and in doing so you discover a lot more.

Limitation is a very great teacher and the lessons and answers mostly come from within, from self discovery.

[Mikep996]

I agree that film required us to be more 'careful' with shooting because shotgunning, simply isn't practical with film.  I traveled quite a bit and 10 rolls of 36 exp film was plenty for a week.  People now shoot 360 photos in a few hours!  TBH, I can't figure out how anybody has the time or interest to actually review 360 pictures that they shot today!   

[lct]

2 hours ago, Dr No said:

It comes back to the decisive moment, doesn't it? Everything that surrounds it is distilled in the photographers photos.. Everything leading up to that moment of pressing the shutter, the individuals history, their point of view, their sensitivity, their emotions, combined with the technical aspects, the choice of camera, lens, exposure, composition and through to what the photographer chooses to point the camera at and the moment, carefully selected to represent all that. It's a combination of everything inward and outward and the relationship between them.

Nicely said. 

2 hours ago, Dr No said:

If someone wants to learn photography, put down the digital camera and pick up a film camera. 10 frames a roll, $2.50 a photo; it teaches a lot more about what photography actually is.

I would have said exactly the opposite . Hard to agree on everything anyway .

[Dr No]

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12 minutes ago, lct said:

Nicely said. 

I would have said exactly the opposite . Hard to agree on everything anyway .

😁

Digital is good for learning certain things, but I find it a lot worse for learning other things that are most important to photography. It teaches bad habits in some instances, as discussed earlier—spray and pray, no consideration for exposure or composition relying on high pixel and dynamic range cameras. No limitation creates indecision unless you've already learned such things.

Also, I don't believe you can simulate what you learn with film cameras with digital.

[lct]

15 minutes ago, Dr No said:

😁

Digital is good for learning certain things, but I find it a lot worse for learning other things that are most important to photography. It teaches bad habits in some instances, as discussed earlier—spray and pray, no consideration for exposure or composition relying on high pixel and dynamic range cameras. No limitation creates indecision unless you've already learned such things.

Also, I don't believe you can simulate what you learn with film cameras with digital.

Why simulating? Young photogs have no idea about the way of using film. But digital helps them to try, and try again at no cost and each time they try they learn something. Now i'm not the best person to ask as i've never liked film to be honest but don't repeat it please .

[Dr No]

31 minutes ago, lct said:

Why simulating? Young photogs have no idea about the way of using film. But digital helps them to try, and try again at no cost and each time they try they learn something. Now i'm not the best person to ask as i've never liked film to be honest but don't repeat it please .

It's a unique experience that you learn certain things from. I don't believe you can simulate it, so it is difficult to learn these things with out the experience.

[lct]

25 minutes ago, Dr No said:

It's a unique experience that you learn certain things from. I don't believe you can simulate it, so it is difficult to learn these things with out the experience.

Not to contradict you but i don't try to simulate film or anything else when i take photos. I prefer doing things my own way generally but again it's just me . 

[Dr No]

8 minutes ago, lct said:

Not to contradict you but i don't try to simulate film or anything else when i take photos. I prefer doing things my own way generally but again it's just me . 

Yes, your own way is the best way.

Also, I am not speaking about the simulation of aesthetics, which we know we can do reasonably well. I mean it's the experience of shooting with film and the lessons it teaches you that you can not simulate.

[farnz]

2 hours ago, Dr No said:

I didn't mean as a beginners rig. A rig for learning it most definitely is though.

"Potay-toe", "Potah-toe".  For me in this contect, learners = beginners, hence my response.  I consider that after 50+ years of photography I am still learning (and happy to be) but I wouldn't class myself as a beginner.

Pete.

[pop]

Advanced beginner, perhaps?

[LocalHero1953]

I've had two learners' rigs in my life. One was a Pentax MX, a new exciting camera that I bought in a new country where film and film processing were very cheap and rapid. I was excited by my new surroundings and I could afford to use a couple of films in the morning and get the results that evening while I could still remember what I did wrong. The second was a Leica M9, a new exciting camera that allowed me to see the results almost instantly while I could still remember what I did wrong. I hope the common factors are obvious. The slow variety of film photography did nothing to teach me photography. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[Dr No]

3 minutes ago, farnz said:

"Potay-toe", "Potah-toe".  For me in this contect, learners = beginners, hence my response.  I consider that after 50+ years of photography I am still learning (and happy to be) but I wouldn't class myself as a beginner.

Pete.

Yes I understood what you initially meant.

Indeed, everyone is always learning. Photography is wonderful like that.

[harryzet]

it depends

[Dr No]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I've had two learners' rigs in my life. One was a Pentax MX, a new exciting camera that I bought in a new country where film and film processing were very cheap and rapid. I was excited by my new surroundings and I could afford to use a couple of films in the morning and get the results that evening while I could still remember what I did wrong. The second was a Leica M9, a new exciting camera that allowed me to see the results almost instantly while I could still remember what I did wrong. I hope the common factors are obvious. The slow variety of film photography did nothing to teach me photography. 

I suspect it may have taught you more than you may realise.

Digital can of course teach us beneficial things but I believe it can also teach us detrimental things.

[LocalHero1953]

Just now, Dr No said:

I suspect it may have taught you more than you may realise.

Digital can of course teach us beneficial things but I believe it can also teach us detrimental things.

I suspect I'm in a better position than you to make that assessment.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Dr No]

14 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I suspect I'm in a better position than you to make that assessment.

I suspect you've taken it the wrong way.

[IkarusJohn]

46 minutes ago, farnz said:

"Potay-toe", "Potah-toe".  For me in this contect, learners = beginners, hence my response.  I consider that after 50+ years of photography I am still learning (and happy to be) but I wouldn't class myself as a beginner.

Pete.

Does anyone actually say “po-tah-toe”?