Why so much love for M10?

[SrMi]

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Framing and focusing can occasionally be a challenge with an M camera. When that occurs, I attach the EVF (Visioflex 020) and use it to frame and focus.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Erato]

FYR.

Correction Lenses

Shoot without glasses

Leica M Correction Lenses enable optimum adaptation of the viewfinder to the user’s eyesight and thus allow more precise and comfortable focusing with the camera. They are available in the strengths +/– 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2 and 3 dioptres. Please note that the default value of the viewfinder of the Leica M is –0.5 dioptres to guarantee a comfortable view through the viewfinder at medium distances.

https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Technical-Equipment/Viewfinder-Accessories/Correction-lenses

 

VIEWFINDER MAGNIFIERS M

For super-precise focusing

Viewfinder Magnifier M1.25x 

To provide major aide in framing the subject at focal lengths of 50 mm or more, the M 1.25x magnifies the viewfinder image by one quarter. This greatly enhances focusing accuracy, especially when shooting at telephoto focal lengths. 

Viewfinder Magnifier M1.4x

Enlarging the viewfinder image by two fifths, this viewfinder magnifier is recommended for focal lengths of 75 mm or more. It also turns into magnification of 1x (0.95x with M8-Models); a combination that allows comfortable viewing of the subject with both eyes.

https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Technical-Equipment/Viewfinder-Accessories/Viewfinder-magnifiers-M

 

[jplomley]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The quality of images made by practically any professional camera now were unimaginable even 15 years ago. In the early days of the M, it was unmatched in its ability to provide high quality images in low light in a discreet package. Now a stabilized mirrorless camera with a 1.4 lens might go to ISO 409,600... The usage case for the M has changed in the digital era. My point is that more than ever, the camera to use is the one that you feel most comfortable using. Most cameras now will give excellent results if you put an appropriate lens on them. People tend to follow the specs and minimize the actual user experience. I think for most people, the user experience is more important to whether you take good pictures than the camera specs.

The M offers a very specific and, to many, desirable user experience. If you like taking pictures without a lot of help from technology, it is easier to get that feeling from the M10 than for example, a Sony A7 series camera. What you give up in features, you gain in a streamlined user experience: a clear finder with minimal distractions, few buttons and settings, mostly small and very good fast lenses. If you like using one, it is not really anything to be proud of,  and likewise you should not be ashamed for not liking one. I love manual cameras (especially large format view cameras), on the other hand, I want absolutely nothing to do with a manual transmission in a car. Leica marketing likes to sell the M as being some sort of "test" to show that someone is a true photographer, but it is a bit of nonsense. Some photographers like to control every aspect of the camera to get the picture perfect. Other equally talented photographers could not care less about such things and just let the camera do as much as possible. Everyone needs to gravitate towards their own needs.

I think for most people, the user experience is more important to whether you take good pictures than the camera specs.

Absolutely spot-on! 

[Casey Jefferson]

I for one doesn't care about it being autofocus or manual focus as I'm a slow shooter, I'm all for the rendering of Leica glasses which fortunately or unfortunately, worked best on Leica M body.

I can see the patch clearly and my first set came with a perfectly matched body and lens. My first impression was very positive that focusing with the RF was surprisingly easy (with a 35/2), as long as I see the 2 images snapped together (which is distinctively sharp and clear).

And I must say, it doesn't get any better than manual focusing with RF, which is a joy to shoot. 😁

Edited July 23, 2020 by Casey Jefferson

[TomB_tx]

I've owned most of the film Ms over 50 years, and only the M9 had the RF go out of adjustment - once.

[6bit]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:32 AM, Flyer said:

Thank you for all your comments and for not flaming me!!!

The issue for me is I so much wanted to "own" a Leica and the M10 just felt right and I felt more connected with the photographing process and I had hoped it would slow me down and make me more deliberate about my photography. I have myself to blame as I didn't give the camera enough of a chance, however it was a used model and I only had 7 days to return. I didn't want to over use it as that would be unfair and so I only practiced with a few shots in the garden, hardly an appropriate amount of usage.

I love the form factor and the heft etc, but for me it would be an additional rather than an only camera and I simply can't afford to have that luxury.

The Q2 would be too limiting with a fixed lens, and the SL is just too big.

I guess a compromise would be the CL but when you hold it compared to an M it just doesn't give you that Junoesque.

Get a Sony a7R4 and the Voigtlander 1.4/35mm II and thank me later. This lens stays mounted on my SL. Love it. 

 

[Guest]

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I find rangefinder focus and viewing a total joy and im 61 years old.

All my 4 different lenses are bang on accurate with the RF and very easy to use.

I do use a 1.4 magnifier with my 90mm f2.8 tele-elmarit  for enlarging the frame lines but that lens is a joy to use and easy to focus.

The m is not for everyone but i really hope they don't mess it it up by trying to make it for everyone.

I believe leica should stick with the add on accessory approach for people who sometimes want to use an EVF.

[Dr No]

On 7/23/2020 at 9:15 AM, Flyer said:

As a very recent owner of an M10 I personally found it incredibly difficult after years with mirrorless and DSLR's. Do get me wrong I went into the purchase with my eyes wide open so it was let's say an error of judgment on my behalf, I have yesterday returned the M10. 

My main problem was accurate focusing, however I don't appear to be alone when it comes to the usability of the M series. 

This is Not bashing Leica, quit the opposite I want to really understand from a users perspective how to appreciate what the M10 can actually do and more importantly how we become more engaged. 

Like many I suppose I wanted to enter the world of Leica for the pure pleasure that it can provide both emotionally and quality. However although I obviously didn't give it enough time, there just seemed to be too many compromises. I suffer from some astigmatism and felt left frustrated by the rangefinder experience not being able to get sharp focus everytime. 

In a world when there are so may aids to enable you to maximise your ability to capture a fleeting moment, that them series can be seen as a frustrating experience. 

I notice many photographs have both an M and say an SL, maybe expecting an M10 to cover all bases was a unrealistic ambition, and some people are willing to accept the imperfections of the rangefinder system in order to engage in the experience of nostalgia? 

I am extremely disappointed at having to return the M10, I even bought the Visoflex to enable me to use focus peaking but maybe due to user error I got mixed results. 

Thanks in advance 

 

It takes practice.

[rivi1969]

4 hours ago, 6bit said:

Get a Sony a7R4 and the Voigtlander 1.4/35mm II and thank me later. This lens stays mounted on my SL. Love it. 

 

But there is no mystique with a Sony... 😂

[Herr Barnack]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:32 AM, Flyer said:

Thank you for all your comments and for not flaming me!!!

The issue for me is I so much wanted to "own" a Leica and the M10 just felt right and I felt more connected with the photographing process and I had hoped it would slow me down and make me more deliberate about my photography. I have myself to blame as I didn't give the camera enough of a chance, however it was a used model and I only had 7 days to return. I didn't want to over use it as that would be unfair and so I only practiced with a few shots in the garden, hardly an appropriate amount of usage.

I love the form factor and the heft etc, but for me it would be an additional rather than an only camera and I simply can't afford to have that luxury.

The Q2 would be too limiting with a fixed lens, and the SL is just too big.

I guess a compromise would be the CL but when you hold it compared to an M it just doesn't give you that Junoesque.

@Flyer

When you have only used autofocus cameras in the past, you won't be able to become accustomed to shooting with a rangefinder in such a short period of time.  It will certainly take more than a few shots in the garden.  Not that it will take months or years of work, but it will take a little practice.

You do not say which lens you were using.  This is a factor.  if you are shooting with a short telephoto (75mm, 90, or 135mm) you will have more of a challenge nailing focus.  The longer the focal length, the more narrow the depth of field (DOF) will be at a given aperture.  The same principle applies with fast lenses - a 50mm f/1.4 shot at f/1.4 will have a very thin DOF, particularly up close.  The closer you are to your subject, the less DOF you will have at a given aperture.

 The M10 you tried was a used camera, so it is possible tat the rangefinder mechanism was in need of some fine tuning.  Don Goldberg at DAG Camera Repair can do this.

If you are serious about wanting a Leica M camera and giving the rangefinder style of photography a good test run, do this:  Rent an M10 and a 35mm Summicron (f/2) for a week.  Practice with it every day for a week - as in make 50-100 or more photographs each day.  Use f/5.6 at first.  Get used to focusing at this aperture, then try f/4, then f/2.8 and finally f/2. 

Wear your glasses or contacts while shooting so you can see a sharp overlay of the two images in the rangefinder patch.  Learn to focus by zeroing in on sharp edges in the rangefinder patch.  Fine tune your focus until there is no misalignment, no blur, no double image - only a single sharp line.  That is how you achieve critical focus.

I would recommend a 35mm lens as your first rangefinder lens, then a 50mm.  Learn to focus properly at the middle apertures (f/8, f/5.6 and f/4) and then work on focusing at maximum aperture, and wear your glasses or contacts.  As long as the rangefinder mechanism is not out of alignment, you should be able to get photographs with sharp focus on your main subject. 

I would urge you to rent an M10 and a 35mm Summicron for a week and give the camera a good shakedown cruise.  If you don't, you may well miss out on your chance to own an M10 and the world of rangefinder photography.  It is a different realm and is a very satisfying and enjoyable way to make photographs - and it is definitely worth the small amount of work that it takes to get accustomed to using a rangefinder camera.

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[evikne]

59 minutes ago, Dr No said:

It takes practice.

About ten years ago I had a burning desire to learn manual photography – to understand how all exposure parameters worked together and how to use them. And I learned that pretty quickly, because I really wanted to. I would say that was when photography became a hobby "for real" to me.

I got a similar feeling when I got my first Leica M some years ago and wanted to learn how to use a rangefinder camera. My dream was to handle and focus it like the old masters. I practiced a lot, and today, using an M feels completely natural, and practically just as fast as any modern autofocus camera.

The only limitation lies in oneself.

[Herr Barnack]

13 minutes ago, evikne said:

About ten years ago I had a burning desire to learn manual photography – to understand how all exposure parameters worked together and how to use them. And I learned that pretty quickly, because I really wanted to. I would say that was when photography became a hobby "for real" to me.

I got a similar feeling when I got my first Leica M some years ago and wanted to learn how to use a rangefinder camera. My dream was to handle and focus it like the old masters. I practiced a lot, and today, using an M feels completely natural, and practically just as fast as any modern autofocus camera.

The only limitation lies in oneself.

Very well said. 

And then there's this, from Ernst Haas:

Quote

"There is only you and your camera. The limitations in your photography are in yourself, for what we see is what we are."

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[Fontan]

On 7/23/2020 at 1:45 AM, lohthx1r said:

Totally understand your sentiment, I was in your situation and found that the use cases for M camera is getting lesser and lesser after I get a Q2 and SL2.

My major challenge is the focusing of a rangefinder system as my eyes is not getting younger.

 

That’s my problem, my visual acuity. That’s why I committed blasphemy by getting Visoflex EVF. With focus peaking I could focus again. I love RF, but the real reason for M10 is the M lenses. 

[IkarusJohn]

There are lots of very good reasons to own a Leica M - well made, manual, compact, great lenses, legacy etc, but the ecosystem revolves around the viewfinder.  It is how you compose, focus and frame.  Coming from an SLR, it’s an ecosystem which takes some rethinking.

My experience has been that you can add viewfinders, but it’s the optical rangefinder you need to get your head around.  For me, the ideal focal range is 28mm to 75mm.  When looking at the focus patch, you need to remember that the focus patch doesn’t change with various focal lengths - so for longer focal lengths, the patch occupies a larger proportion of the image and for wider focal lengths, the patch occupies a smaller proportion of the image.  Perhaps counterintuitively, that makes the rangefinder more accurate for wider lenses than longer.  But it is accurate, regardless (provided properly calibrated).

The first look through the viewfinder can be a little disorienting, if you’re used to the through-the-lens view using an SLR.  There’s no automatic aperture stop-down, so the shutter is faster and quieter; you’re looking at a plain glass view, which is also odd.  But, if you remember that the framing is approximate, and you need to pay attention to the focusing patch, it does become a liberating experience.  You will find that your speed and accuracy improves, and you will get a lot of images with the subject centre image (due to the fixed focusing patch) - you can focus and recompose, but if you do remember to rock back slightly on your heels.

I always set the lens to wide open (stopping down as needed) and the focus tab at infinity - that way, I know when I pick up the camera which way I need to turn the focus tab and the aperture I’m starting with.  Try not to focus forward and back all the time - turn the tab to the best focus and rock back and forth on your heels if you need to make fine adjustment.

Once you’ve got your head around the rangefinder, you won’t look back.  I’m 61, and as a result of heavy steroids over an extended period, I got cataracts - after both eyes were done (extended range lenses), I found that my astigmatism had got worse (still not very bad) and I’m having to use lubricating drops to get clear vision.  I don’t wear my glasses when photographing as they get in the way.  My astigmatism doesn’t really affect my ability to focus my M cameras - practice has helped.  For 50mm and 75mm I use a 1.4 magnifier, which is really helpful.

I hope you get to try an M again - the M10 has the best viewfinder, and properly calibrated, focusing is fast and easy, once you’re used to it.  Focus peaking with an EVF is a very poor substitute ...

 

[Dennis]

In the beginning, with my M10, I had to struggle with focus and accurate composition. I was coming from SLR and DSLR. Then, I embrace the pursuit of perfection and how a Rangefinder system works (especially the M system), and I understood that, what I thought were problems, they actually were strengths.
The M system is not certainly for everyone. And you need the practice to master focus and proper composition. But these "alleged" limitations, they actually set you free. Having only a few things to worry about, forcing you with limited tools, you can be more in-the-moment and make better art.
Less is more. As Da Vinci said, Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.    

M10 could not be for you, it's possible. And it's legitime. But give an M10 another chance, and then you decide.

[6bit]

8 hours ago, rivi1969 said:

But there is no mystique with a Sony... 😂

He’s not impressed with the M10 so I don’t think he’s concerned with it. 🙂

[Erato]

On 7/23/2020 at 4:15 PM, Flyer said:

As a very recent owner of an M10 I personally found it incredibly difficult after years with mirrorless and DSLR's. Do get me wrong I went into the purchase with my eyes wide open so it was let's say an error of judgment on my behalf, I have yesterday returned the M10. 

My main problem was accurate focusing, however I don't appear to be alone when it comes to the usability of the M series. 

This is Not bashing Leica, quit the opposite I want to really understand from a users perspective how to appreciate what the M10 can actually do and more importantly how we become more engaged. 

Like many I suppose I wanted to enter the world of Leica for the pure pleasure that it can provide both emotionally and quality. However although I obviously didn't give it enough time, there just seemed to be too many compromises. I suffer from some astigmatism and felt left frustrated by the rangefinder experience not being able to get sharp focus everytime. 

In a world when there are so may aids to enable you to maximise your ability to capture a fleeting moment, that them series can be seen as a frustrating experience. 

I notice many photographs have both an M and say an SL, maybe expecting an M10 to cover all bases was a unrealistic ambition, and some people are willing to accept the imperfections of the rangefinder system in order to engage in the experience of nostalgia? 

I am extremely disappointed at having to return the M10, I even bought the Visoflex to enable me to use focus peaking but maybe due to user error I got mixed results. 

Thanks in advance 

 

On 11/19/2017 at 5:18 PM, jaapv said:

There is the waltereyepiece, which is said to be the perfect solution for astigmatism.

 

 

http://walterleica.com/#EYEPIECE

FYR.

[Michael Markey]

I`ve been photographing since 1962 and have used three film M`s for the past twenty years or so .

Most of my lenses are manual focus .

Since retirement I photograph every day  , mostly for friends .

The majority of that is equestrian photography so AF has become more important over the years .

You can of course  deploy manual techniques to nail the shot (I did for 20 years) but good AF is a lot more reliable .

So what type of camera you use depends to a large extent on subject matter ,skill and the importance you place on user experience over getting the shot.

I stopped using  the M`s and bought into Canon .

I then tried Sony which were far better technically but a worst user experience than Canon and I`m currently I`m using a CL .

The CL will save me considerable weight over the Canon although I don`t find it a better user experience in all respects .

I`ll see how it stands up to the action today or maybe not given the dreadful weather conditions (another reason for hanging on to the Canon gear)

What I think I`m trying to say is you have to try this stuff out in the real world ,in real life scenarios as they affect you and what you are trying to achieve.

Others opinions and spec sheets are only of so much help .

 

Ps Still use the film M`s just not for everything .

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Michael Markey

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Hallo,

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[Mikep996]

Totally concur.  For years my wife was an equestrian show jumper.  She no longer jumps, just rides - she finally decided she had broken a sufficient number of bones (and now wonders why sometimes her shoulder hurts, or her elbow hurts, or her back hurts [disc] or her knee hurts, etc, etc, etc...)    I did a lot of photo work for her and others during that period.  I owned a Leica M6/an assortment of Leica lenses at the time and it's what I carried around for my personal enjoyment.  BUT I used a Nikon SLR/ F2.8 long zoom for all the shots at the events.  

Since I no longer attend/shoot at any sporting events, I no longer own any SLR gear and just enjoy shooting with my M10.

[Michael Markey]

5 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

Totally concur.  For years my wife was an equestrian show jumper.  She no longer jumps, just rides - she finally decided she had broken a sufficient number of bones (and now wonders why sometimes her shoulder hurts, or her elbow hurts, or her back hurts [disc] or her knee hurts, etc, etc, etc...)    I did a lot of photo work for her and others during that period.  I owned a Leica M6/an assortment of Leica lenses at the time and it's what I carried around for my personal enjoyment.  BUT I used a Nikon SLR/ F2.8 long zoom for all the shots at the events.  

Since I no longer attend/shoot at any sporting events, I no longer own any SLR gear and just enjoy shooting with my M10.

.... and there is another example of equipment dilemma ..... zooms .

Owned three in fifty years .

Don`t especially care for them  ,only because I`m not used to them .

I often forget that I have a zoom lens on the camera  (if that makes sense) because I`m too use to using my feet.

However you can`t shoot a course of jumps satisfactorily without one .

You can easily focus on a single jump with an RF and maybe two if you`re quick but that`s all.

It still comes down to the right tool for the job .

It`s defining what you consider is the job which is the difficult part .