Tailwagger Posted July 30, 2020 Share #161 Posted July 30, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 minute ago, lct said: If you mean magnify, yes of course that's what higher pixel counts are supposed do. The thought being that some beauty marks become warts if examined too closely. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 30, 2020 Posted July 30, 2020 Hi Tailwagger, Take a look here What defines "Modern" Leica M Lenses for the M10-R?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LBJ2 Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share #162 Posted July 30, 2020 Just now, Tailwagger said: The thought being that some beauty marks become warts if examined too closely. Excellent ! Yes. LOL. I had the same experience going from a 42MP FF sensor to a 61MP sensor. I thought I saw more noise but in reality the same amount of noise was just more pronounced on the higher MP sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted July 30, 2020 Share #163 Posted July 30, 2020 Amplify. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 30, 2020 Share #164 Posted July 30, 2020 Magnification is magnification folks. You have not to watch your pics at 100% magnification. Do it at 75% and you will believe that you did not buy an M10-R . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted July 30, 2020 Share #165 Posted July 30, 2020 vor 9 Minuten schrieb willeica: This is what I have been saying all along. My view was based on my experience of using Leica lenses of all ages, but you have provided some explicit examples. Thanks for doing this. William I am sure you have used more lenses of all ages than I have, but in principle you are not alone. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted July 30, 2020 Share #166 Posted July 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, lct said: Magnification is magnification folks. You have not to watch your pics at 100% magnification. Do it at 75% and you will believe that you did not buy an M10-R . First, this is just reporting. Some may find such things acceptable, others, might not. The original photo provided demonstrates the issue quite clearly. The fence looks like crap. It gives the impression that the shot is utterly out of focus when it isn't. Thats got ZERO to do with pixel peeping at 100% or even 75%. That effect is clearly seen as 2K image when displayed on this site, which puts it ~3 MPx image or viewing at 14%. The enlargements where provided to show clearly to all the wise asses in the audience that focus was not the issue, ghosting was. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! All shots taken by the same photographer with the same lens at or close to wide open on a 24Mpx M. Everything at the point of focus is sharp, period, no ghosts, halos, nada. At the same resolution now displayed on this site do you see anything even remotely similar to blurriness of the fence posts (that shot's point of focus) in the 10-R sample I provided? I don't. Consider. Pixels aren't the only thing thats changed here, the cover glass has as well. With, as I understand it, new IR and UV filtering. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! All shots taken by the same photographer with the same lens at or close to wide open on a 24Mpx M. Everything at the point of focus is sharp, period, no ghosts, halos, nada. At the same resolution now displayed on this site do you see anything even remotely similar to blurriness of the fence posts (that shot's point of focus) in the 10-R sample I provided? I don't. Consider. Pixels aren't the only thing thats changed here, the cover glass has as well. With, as I understand it, new IR and UV filtering. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018525'>More sharing options...
lct Posted July 30, 2020 Share #167 Posted July 30, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have seen (and still see) that glow so often on 6MP to 24MP cameras that i don't find what you've found surprising at all. Again watch your pic at lower magnification and you won't see any significant difference compared to an M10 i suspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBJ2 Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share #168 Posted July 30, 2020 26 minutes ago, Tailwagger said: First, this is just reporting. Some may find such things acceptable, others, might not. The original photo provided demonstrates the issue quite clearly. The fence looks like crap. It gives the impression that the shot is utterly out of focus when it isn't. Thats got ZERO to do with pixel peeping at 100% or even 75%. That effect is clearly seen as 2K image when displayed on this site, which puts it ~3 MPx image or viewing at 14%. The enlargements where provided to show clearly to all the wise asses in the audience that focus was not the issue, ghosting was. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! All shots taken by the same photographer with the same lens at or close to wide open on a 24Mpx M. Everything at the point of focus is sharp, period, no ghosts, halos, nada. At the same resolution now displayed on this site do you see anything even remotely similar to blurriness of the fence posts (that shot's point of focus) in the 10-R sample I provided? I don't. Consider. Pixels aren't the only thing thats changed here, the cover glass has as well. With, as I understand it, new IR and UV filtering. I know exactly where you are going with this. You spent your money, bought the M10R and are now trying your own lenses on that M10-R and comparing to what the same lenses looked like on a 24MP sensor and ...presented examples as such. Not sure many others on this thread own the M10R. I know I don't and you are the first to present sample images here.. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 31, 2020 Share #169 Posted July 31, 2020 Here on a 6MP sensor (Epson R-D1). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018539'>More sharing options...
adan Posted July 31, 2020 Share #170 Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) Just for the record, the "stria" and "glow+sharpness" in Tailwagger's samples are perfectly normal optical phenomena for a compact, 35 f/1.4, double-gauss lens. Various combinations of coma, astigmatism and spherical aberration. And it doesn't take 40 Mpixels to see them - samples below are from the 35 f/1.4 Nokton II from Voigtlander, a kissing cousin of the pre-ASPH 35 Summilux, on a plain-vanilla 24Mpixel M10. The M10-R's 40 Mpixels just happen to be a better "microscope" for discerning them. Although frankly I can perceive them quite easily in some of the B&W shots in post #166 (top-right-corner in "tractor with trees," and around the sun reflections on the swing-set (seat on left)). It just depends on how the aberration patterns interact with subject patterns/textures like branches, bright reflections, grainy surfaces, intense specular reflections, etc. Top - fairy lights (point light sources) to show the aberrations as they affect any one point in a picture, progressing from "glows" on the left to "wings" on the right as one nears the edge of the picture, and Bottom - how those same tangential (around the picture center) "wings" of aberration overlap from thousands of neighboring points in an image corner, to form the "stria." This, by the way, is a fresh-from-the-factory lens, thus "separation" has nothing to do with it. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! For that matter, such aberrations show up in the 2001, film (no sensor, no cover glass) picture below, with the also-similar, compact-DG 35 Summicron v.4 - in a 4 (four) Mpixel-equivalent film scan. It is what such lenses do, at the largest apertures. And if one knows one's lenses, it is completely expected behavior - at any scale. Edited July 31, 2020 by adan 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! For that matter, such aberrations show up in the 2001, film (no sensor, no cover glass) picture below, with the also-similar, compact-DG 35 Summicron v.4 - in a 4 (four) Mpixel-equivalent film scan. It is what such lenses do, at the largest apertures. And if one knows one's lenses, it is completely expected behavior - at any scale. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018563'>More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted July 31, 2020 Share #171 Posted July 31, 2020 I agree about the stria. I failed to mention in my response that it was clearly evident in a couple of the shots I posted... part of the reason I choose them to show that my second observation was down to the lens. That said, I'm relieved to hear that this phenomenon is not atypicial. Knowing that, it does relatively certain that the added resolving power of the R makes this effect more pronounced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 31, 2020 Share #172 Posted July 31, 2020 BTW, it is certainly not a bad idea to - investigate - the effects of any new sensor design. This 2005 shot shows repeated internal reflections in the thickish green-tinted cover glass of the Sony APS-C SLR (Nikon D100) CCD sensor installed in the Epson R-D1, with a C/V 15mm v.1 lens. The light just went bouncy-bouncy-bouncy between the front and back surfaces with such a short, wide, shallow-angle-of-incidence lens, leaving a trail of expanding green and cyan circles. Would not have been a problem in the D100, with 40± mm between even a 14mm SLR lens and the sensor. When I got to try a pre-production M8, I immediately tested it for this kind of behavior near a corner, and the same 15mm. The good news was that Leica's ultra-thin 0.5mm cover glass didn't do this - the bad news (as we found out) was that it was also a poor infrared-light barrier. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018580'>More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted July 31, 2020 Share #173 Posted July 31, 2020 Are repeated internal reflections (in this case, off film) the reason for the characteristic signature of early zoom shots with the sun in the frame? Think panning along with the motorcycles in Easy Rider and many such movie shots. I seldom see more than one extra image like that, rather than a whole train of them in modern cameras. Of course the CL with a 23 mm lens is an exception. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 31, 2020 Share #174 Posted July 31, 2020 The Summilux 35 pre-asph's "glow" is the same on all sensors i've used so far. Here on the digital CL. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018715'>More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted July 31, 2020 Share #175 Posted July 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, lct said: The Summilux 35 pre-asph's "glow" is the same on all sensors i've used so far. How about an actual comparison. Tripod, f1.4 ISO100 cropped to 2k by 2k. Processed in LR, press Auto, reset Vibrance/Saturation to 0. No profiles applied. M10-R Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! SL2 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! SL2 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018741'>More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted July 31, 2020 Share #176 Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) f2 M10-R Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! SL2 Edited July 31, 2020 by Tailwagger 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! SL2 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018743'>More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted July 31, 2020 Share #177 Posted July 31, 2020 Amplify Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted July 31, 2020 Share #178 Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) f8 M10-R Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! SL2 Edited July 31, 2020 by Tailwagger 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! SL2 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311590-what-defines-modern-leica-m-lenses-for-the-m10-r/?do=findComment&comment=4018746'>More sharing options...
LBJ2 Posted July 31, 2020 Author Share #179 Posted July 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, Tailwagger said: f8 M10-RSL2 Wide open, F2 and F8. Very interesting comparison Tailwagger. I'm thinking about the old "picture vs a thousand words" saying. Very helpful and for me enviable that you are able to directly compare M10, M10-R and the SL2 with your favorite lenses. Thank you for posting 👍 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 31, 2020 Share #180 Posted July 31, 2020 24 minutes ago, Tailwagger said: f2 M10-R Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! SL2 Not the same focusing it seems. For valid comparisons focusing and exposure must be exactly the same. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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