What defines "Modern" Leica M Lenses for the M10-R?

[LBJ2]

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Watching many of the M10-R videos, Leica leaders talk about modern Leica M lenses may be sharper on the new 40.89 MP sensors compared to older Leica M glass. What defines Modern Leica M glass? Does this mean Leica M lenses designed/manufactured from 2010? 

Edited July 22, 2020 by LBJ2

[onasj]

I think "modern" lenses in Leica community nomenclature generally refers to lenses that render sharply across most or all of the frame, with minimal distortion, chromatic aberration, coma, swirly bokeh, or other optical "imperfections" that are sometimes considered to add character to a photo.  Older lenses (sometimes also called classic lenses, lenses with character, dreamy lenses, artsy lenses, etc.) have more of these optical imperfections that can convey a certain desired (or undesired) atmosphere in a photo.

Some examples of "modern" M lenses: 35 FLE, 50 APO, 75 Noct, 75 APO, 90 APO, 135 APO

Some examples of "classic/artsy" M lenses: 50/1.2, 75 lux, and many older versions of 28/35/50-mm lenses

And then there are some lenses that share some characteristics of both in my opinion, like the 28 lux.

Of course which lens is best depends on the subject and intended purpose—a documentary architecture shot or landscape panorama might benefit from a modern look, kids running through grass or an emotion-packed moment on-stage or in the streets might benefit from a more artistic lens.

Edited July 22, 2020 by onasj

[LBJ2]

After some googling, I've not yet found definitive answer to my question. But thought it interesting the term "modern" Leica M lenses was used on most of the M10-R introduction videos. I think there must be some specific definition of "modern" Leica M glass design, perhaps referring to a digital design they are referring to that probably include the examples you listed "Some examples of "modern" M lenses: 35 FLE, 50 APO, 75 Noct, 75 APO, 90 APO, 135 APO"  

Design dates of 2010 forward seem to be stuck in my head for some reason. Did I hear/read that somewhere or dreamed it.

Edited July 22, 2020 by LBJ2

[01af]

Modern lenses are always sharper than older lenses. This is not related to the camera.

[LBJ2]

2 minutes ago, 01af said:

Modern lenses are always sharper than older lenses. This is not related to the camera.

Thank you. Not what I am asking. Maybe I could word my question better?

Edited July 22, 2020 by LBJ2

[01af]

vor 1 Minute schrieb LBJ2:

Not what I am asking.

No, but addressing a common misconception you cited.

[evikne]

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To me, "modern" lenses are those designed by Peter Karbe, and "older" lenses are designed by Walter Mandler and earlier. But some people probably want to be even more specific. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by evikne

[LBJ2]

More questions as I search. 

For instance, Peter Karbe talks about three generations of Leica M lenses. He describes as Generation I ( screw mount/3 group) II (new glass tech, coatings and faster glass) and III. He describes Generation III M lenses as "M-Mount lenses Asph.and Floating E." My guess is Generation III may be what is also called "modern" Leica M lenses?

 

 

 

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Edited July 22, 2020 by LBJ2

[pgk]

Mandler era lenses were very good but the inability to use aspheric surfaces due to high cost and other constraints left residual spherical aberration of varying amounts. The result was often a very good lens, but one which had the edge detail rounded off, just. Many users of M lenses like this look because it gives great definition without the precision and clinical bite associated with the latest generation of lenses. These latest lenses (generation III) control aberrations to very high levels indeed and the result is an increase in detail definition which some perceive as too much. Allied to this are floating elements which ensure high performance at varying focussed distances, and you have extraordinarily well performing lenses at all settings. I have a mix of the latest and Mandler era lenses. I can't really say that any lack anything in terms of viable performance but differences are there and an be seen (depending on subject).

[LBJ2]

One item noted from Peter Karbe's video that seemed definitive is APO is required for highest performance/resolution among both M and SL lenses. So in the case of M glass we currently have three APO lenses 50, 75 and 90. If I understand this correctly these three APO M lenses currently will be the highest performers on the 40.89 M10-R/M10-M sensors. He also mention the Lux 35 FLE is a "very good" lens. But of course not APO.

[LBJ2]

35 minutes ago, evikne said:

To me, "modern" lenses are those designed by Peter Karbe, and "older" lenses are designed by Walter Mandler and earlier. But some people probably make even higher demands.

Perhaps a good delineation. As I mentioned before, I'm stuck on trying to identify which M lenses might be the best performers on the M10-R. Leica leaders seem to describe these lenses as "modern" leica M lenses. So I am searching for the definition of "modern" as you understood. I also learned APO lenses are the highest performing lenses in general among M and SL so that answers part of my question "APO" 

Edited July 22, 2020 by LBJ2

[pgk]

8 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Perhaps a good delineation. As I mentioned before, I'm stuck on trying to identify which M lenses might be the best performers on the M10-R. Leica leaders seem to describe these lenses as "modern" leica M lenses. So I am searching for the definition of "modern" as you understood. I also learned APO lenses are the highest performing lenses in general among M and SL so that answers part of my question "APO" 

You also need to define performance. Its not a simple to define term.

[LBJ2]

25 minutes ago, pgk said:

You also need to define performance. Its not a simple to define term.

Good point. High Resolution and Contrast. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by LBJ2

[LBJ2]

*

Edited July 22, 2020 by LBJ2

[jwr50]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

More questions as I search. 

For instance, Peter Karbe talks about three generations of Leica M lenses. He describes as Generation I ( screw mount/3 group) II (new glass tech, coatings and faster glass) and III. He describes Generation III M lenses as "M-Mount lenses Asph.and Floating E." My guess is Generation III may be what is also called "modern" Leica M lenses?

 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

I had not seen this video before.  It's quite interesting and informative.  Thanks very much for posting the link to it.

 

[LBJ2]

1 minute ago, jwr50 said:

 

I had not seen this video before.  It's quite interesting and informative.  Thanks very much for posting the link to it.

 

I think I may have called it a "historic" video on another forum. Peter Karbe is a Rock Star of course, but so humble and polite. 

[jplomley]

Surely the 21 SEM Asph and 28 Cron v2 Asph will be solid performers. Both incredibly sharp IMHO, and optimized for digital.. 

[lct]

What is a modern lens? Simple, there is the word "asph" in the name .

[01af]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb LBJ2:

So in the case of M glass we currently have three Apo lenses 50, 75, and 90.

You forgot the Apo-Telyt-M 135 mm.

.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb LBJ2:

If I understand this correctly these three apo M lenses currently will be the highest performers on the 40.89 MP M10-R/M10-M sensors.

These apo M lenses, along with a few others, currently will be the highest performers on any sensor.

.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb LBJ2:

As I mentioned before, I'm stuck on trying to identify which M lenses might be the best performers on the M10-R.

Do I sense some kind of obsession about the new 40 MP sensor? The best performers on the M10-R are exactly those which used to be the best performers on any Leica M camera. And, by the way, the second-best and third-best performers also will produce marvellous results on the M10-R.

.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb LBJ2:

Leica leaders seem to describe these lenses as "modern" leica M lenses. So I am searching for the definition of "modern" as you understood.

Don't sweat it. There is no sharp definition.

.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb LBJ2:

I also learned apo lenses are the highest-performing lenses in general among M and SL so that answers part of my question ...

It doesn't answer your question but just leads you astray. Sure, the apo M lenses are great performers—on any M camera—but then, so are many others. Don't fall for the misconception that all apo lenses were better than all non-apo lenses, or that all non-apo lenses were worse than those proudly carrying an "Apo" designation in their names. Also, you shouldn't mix M and SL lenses so light-heartedly when performance is paramount to you. M lenses perform best on M cameras; SL lenses perform best on SL cameras. While M lenses work well on SL cameras, they work even better on M cameras.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb lct:

What is a modern lens? Simple, there is the word "Asph" in the name.

Well, okay ... but that's a rule of thumb rather than a definition.

Edited July 23, 2020 by 01af

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[adan]

3 hours ago, evikne said:

To me, "modern" lenses are those designed by Peter Karbe, and "older" lenses are designed by Walter Mandler and earlier. But some people probably want to be even more specific. 

More or less I would agree.

But people always forget Lothar Kölsch, who succeeded Walther Mandler and predated Peter Karbe - roughly 1986-2002 - at the Solms factory after the "reunification" of German and Canadian design and manufacturing.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Lothar_Kölsch

And supervised such new M lenses as the 35mm Summilux ASPHERICAL and ASPH v.1, 90 APO-Summicron-ASPH, 135 APO-Telyt, 21/24mm Elmarit ASPH, 35 Summicron ASPH in the 1990s.

As well as a substantial set of late R lenses (180 APO-Elmarit/Summicron, 70-200 f/2.8 and 105-280 zooms, 280mm APO-Telyt, 19 Elmarit II, 28 Elmarit II, 100mm APO-Macro-Elmarit, modular 280/400/560/800 tele system, 8-element 50mm Summilux-R, (1998) etc.)

Kölsch is the father of the modern Leica APO/ASPH revolution, which Karbe has developed further in this millenium.

For me, the modern M lenses are thus any design introduced after 1990, plus APO R lenses starting in the late 1980s. Which to a greater or lesser extent share a common look of:

- stronger corner performance (Mandler tended to optimize for center resolution)
- warmer/pinker color (Mandler's Canadian designs tend a bit green/cyan by comparison)
- higher global contrast or clarity
- higher micro-contrast or acutance (MTF)