Color sliders in LR (M10 vs M10M)

[caloosajo]

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Haven’t come across much discussion here, but was wondering people’s thoughts on post-processing B&W on M10 vs M10M (or any of the monochroms for that matter). 
 

With my M10, I feel there is a lot of versatility with using color sliders when editing in LR as B&W. I’ve seen folks with M10M employing the typical color filters (red/yellow/orange) to increase contrast in camera. Is this because the ability to adjust color sliders is gone with the M10M?

As attractive as the M10M is, I’m already quick to be impatient when post-processing digital files, but I think I’d find it a nuisance for this flexibility to be absent in an otherwise jaw-dropping digital M. One could argue it gets closer to the film B&W experience I guess, but in that case I’m probably content with $8000 worth of Tri-X and Rodinal haha. Appreciate the insight (and hopefully GAS immunization)!

-J

[adan]

It does get discussed a lot - but often as posts under a thread title that doesn't necessarily mention color and tone processing specifically.

But I think you are missing the point of the Monochroms. If all one is doing is B&W, they produce better B&W pictures.

What's "better?" More resolution, better dynamic range, higher ISOs, less noise for a given ISO.

A color digital image starts out life as a checkerboard of "incomplete pixels" that have to be demosaiced to form any picture at all. Swapping and borrowing information from neighboring pixels of other colors, which leads to a subtle blurring of the picture, regardless whether it is converted as color or B&W. This amounts to a degradation of resolution (edge and detail sharpness) such that an 18MP Monochrom v.1 resolves about as well as a 24Mpixel color M10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing

Of course, with the M10M one adds another 16Mpixels on top of that (to get to 40 Mpixels)

In addition, by using no color filters at all (which block light on the order of 1 stop or more), a Monochrom can take pictures in dimmer light, and/or have a higher dynamic range (capture a greater range of scene brightnesses before losing highlights or shadows) - without gaining noise.

Let's put it this way. If you wanted mostly B&W pictures, would you:
- shoot Delta 3200 and Tri-X and Pan F to begin with?
- Or would you shoot Portra 800 and Fuji Velvia 50 - just to convert those grainy, or lower-speed, color films to B&W?
- Or would you shoot an M10M - where ISO 3200 is just getting started, and ISO 25000 quality is at least as good as Delta 3200 film?

Personally, I get decent tones out of M10 color pix converted to B&W, by one of the various means available. But I do know that I'm not getting quite as much fine detail as I would with an equal-Mpixel M(246), and definitely not as much as with the 40Mpixel M10M (even if I upgraded to M10-R for color). And the color filters on the sensor array are stealing useful light once the sun goes down or I go indoors, so the color-M noise goes way up - unless I must have a color picture anyway, in which case those losses are just part of the trade-off (as they are for color vs. B&W film).

 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by adan

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[Jeff S]

I currently use an M10 and M Monochrom. Frankly either one is capable of producing superb files for my print sizes and rendering tastes, assuming I do my job well.  Both require the same deliberate processing and printing time and effort, which has never been an issue for me given a worthy pic, using darkroom or digital. It might be interesting to test an M10 Monochrom versus an M10-R as a more apples to apples assessment, but neither will turn me into a better photographer or printer.  I wouldn’t refuse either as a birthday gift, though. 

The main benefit of the Monochrom for me is the special nature of an all-b&w workflow and mindset, similar to my film days, including occasional use of color filters.  Sure, after shooting b/w since the 70’s, I can still use an M10 or other digital camera to intentionally see and create greyscale, but it still falls short of the Monochrom experience, which eliminates choice and distraction.  
 

With a traditional/color array sensor, I do find use of color channels in PP beneficial  (if not pushed too far)  to achieve certain tonal rendering and relationships that might be difficult or impossible to match using color filters on a Monochrom, and certainly not with the same flexibility and convenience. It is something that I sometimes miss with a Monochrom, but that’s offset by the above cited benefits. Trade offs for me.

Jeff
 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Jeff S

[caloosajo]

35 minutes ago, adan said:

It does get discussed a lot - but often as posts under a thread title that doesn't necessarily mention color and tone processing specifically.

But I think you are missing the point of the Monochroms. If all one is doing is B&W, they produce better B&W pictures.

What's "better?" More resolution, better dynamic range, higher ISOs, less noise for a given ISO.

A color digital image starts out life as a checkerboard of "incomplete pixels" that have to be demosaiced to form any picture at all. Swapping and borrowing information from neighboring pixels of other colors, which leads to a subtle blurring of the picture, regardless whether it is converted as color or B&W. This amounts to a degradation of resolution (edge and detail sharpness) such that an 18MP Monochrom v.1 resolves about as well as a 24Mpixel color M10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing

Of course, with the M10M one adds another 16Mpixels on top of that (to get to 40 Mpixels)

In addition, by using no color filters at all (which block light on the order of 1 stop or more), a Monochrom can take pictures in dimmer light, and/or have a higher dynamic range (capture a greater range of scene brightnesses before losing highlights or shadows) - without gaining noise.

Let's put it this way. If you wanted mostly B&W pictures, would you:
- shoot Delta 3200 and Tri-X and Pan F to begin with?
- Or would you shoot Portra 800 and Fuji Velvia 50 - just to convert those grainy, or lower-speed, color films to B&W?
- Or would you shoot an M10M - where ISO 3200 is just getting started, and ISO 25000 quality is at least as good as Delta 3200 film?

Personally, I get decent tones out of M10 color pix converted to B&W, by one of the various means available. But I do know that I'm not getting quite as much fine detail as I would with an equal-Mpixel M(246), and definitely not as much as with the 40Mpixel M10M (even if I upgraded to M10-R for color). And the color filters on the sensor array are stealing useful light once the sun goes down or I go indoors, so the color-M noise goes way up - unless I must have a color picture anyway, in which case those losses are just part of the trade-off (as they are for color vs. B&W film).

 

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Definitely appreciate the high resolution afforded by the M10M sans Bayer filter and bypassing demosaicing. And in fact, I’d probably enjoy not having to manipulate the color channels...so M10M remains enticing 🙄

[Jeff S]

15 minutes ago, caloosajo said:

And in fact, I’d probably enjoy not having to manipulate the color channels...so M10M remains enticing 🙄

But the flip side is that you might have to deal with color filters to achieve desired tonality, with reduced flexibility and convenience after the fact.  More work in the field or later at home? Effective black and white is about more than resolution.  And increased dynamic range typically yields flatter out-of-camera files, requiring more tonal adjustments in processing.
 

Jeff

Edited July 17, 2020 by Jeff S

[caloosajo]

27 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

But the flip side is that you might have to deal with color filters to achieve desired tonality, with reduced flexibility and convenience after the fact.  More work in the field or later at home? Effective black and white is about more than resolution.  And increased dynamic range typically yields flatter out-of-camera files, requiring more tonal adjustments in processing.
 

Jeff

Really really helpful, Jeff! I get the spirit of the Monochrom in every iteration (and still want one) but your point that “effective black and white is about more than resolution” resonates with me. I’ll go the distance for a film B&W image to achieve tonality (filters, dodging/burning) and still have a ways to go in my learning, but I have to face the music that my digital workflow can get me there more expediently with the “classic” M10 rather than the M10M. For now...

[Jeff S]

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There’s no free lunch.  The added file malleability produced by any of these modern sensors is remarkable, but that just means that the user has more flexibility and choices. As always, film or digital, color or monochrome, the most important tools are between the ears... a good eye and good judgment.  The techniques can be relatively easy to learn.  The hard part is deciding when, where and to what degree to apply those techniques.  I care about the final print (assuming of course a worthy pic): the difference between a good one and one that ‘sings’ is often subtle, but critical. For me, it has nothing to do with time, effort or expedience. No viewer cares how hard we worked, or what gear we used (except maybe on a gear forum).

Jeff

[AceVentura1986]

I’ve not used either M10 model but I own both an ME and an M9M and have shot each extensively so I think my experience is analogous. I agree with each opinion above. Can you get good BW from color thru a conversion in Lightroom? Yes, I’ve done it. Still, image for image, under identical circumstances the M9M will outresolve the M9M. There is, however, another consider. 

When converting to BW, using the color sliders is a great help but it may result in similar images having different color sensitivity and response. In other words, two images shot of the same scene when color corrected may resolve the same colors as slightly different shades of grey. Perhaps this lack of consistency matters to you, perhaps it doesn’t. However, w a monochrom and color filters, the same color will show the same shade of grey from photo to photo. 

Finally, there’s the issue of image degradation. Using the color sliders, especially in photos of the sky, might tend to cause patchiness and degrade your image. This cannot happen with a monochrom and filters. 

As w everything in photography, YMMV. 

[LeicaS2]

I too was concerned about losing the color sliders in LR if I had a M10M. There were a few rare times when I would do what is effectively a green filter in one portion of the frame a blue in another, and a red in a third and then stack them in PS. I knew I could not do that with filters on the M10M. But those times were extremely few. For the most, I realized that in a B&W conversion I merely used yellow or sometimes orange. So I actively evaluated in my LR work what I was going to be missing without post color filtration.  And I realized one filter would be enough. I also examined how I was using SilverEfxPro2 in post production. I rarely used color filtration at all!   The other sliders where much more effective in modifying the look. Try it if you haven't before.

So, I am having a ball with the M10M. But I am a B&W shooter. 85% of my work in the last eight years has been in B&W. Heck, I even posted a B&W rainbow in the forum.  For color, I do not have a color M, I use other cameras.  Way back, when one really had to decide what one was going to shoot, color or B&W, I confess I had two M6's, one for each. I would not do that today. I would not get a M10R to match the M10M for example, because I have found it is better to go out thinking and seeing color, or B&W.

But if you don't shoot much B&W, or should I say, convert to B&W much, then stay with your M10 and use your budget for something that may expand your view, perhaps a lens of a different focal length? For starters, look at your LR catalog and see if you convert more than 50% of your color to B&W?

[adan]

On 7/18/2020 at 6:44 AM, AceVentura1986 said:

Finally, there’s the issue of image degradation. Using the color sliders, especially in photos of the sky, might tend to cause patchiness and degrade your image. This cannot happen with a monochrom and filters.

This is true. Trying to make a blue sky "29 red-filter dark" from color digital usually produces a lot of patchy noise. Mostly because one ends up using the tones from only 1/4 of the pixels (the ones already filtered red by the Bayer pattern, and by definition underexposed in the first place.)

[Jeff S]

On 7/17/2020 at 12:41 AM, Jeff S said:

I do find use of color channels in PP beneficial  (if not pushed too far)  to achieve certain tonal rendering and relationships that might be difficult or impossible to match using color filters on a Monochrom, and certainly not with the same flexibility and convenience. 
 

 

Which is why I noted this.  Nothing substitutes for user judgment.

Jeff

[AceVentura1986]

I generally leave an orange filter on most of the time as I find the effect lovely without being overwhelming. I’ll use a red one only when shooting landscapes in sunny days and a yellow one at night.