Waist level

[roelv1]

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11 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

From the legal and ethical point of view, waist level photography apparently aims at taking photos of people who do not notice this and - if they would notice would likely never agree. Apart from the fact that this is illegal in many jurisdictions, this is IMHO ethically unacceptable without further discussion.  

Without it, a lot of great pictures would never have been made. To make it worse for you, Paul Strand and Helen Levitt even used mirror attachments in front of their lenses (like a Bower) to be completely inconspicuous. And the great work of Vivian Maier mainly was made at waist level. Illegal? That depends. I know enough cases where a photographer was sued for published street work in a book, whilst the subject concerned was captured in a lets say unflattering way. The court judged it legal because of the freedom of expression. An accuser only has a change if he can prove that he suffers from harmful consequences because of the picture.  However if a photographer does have moral problems ( if the subject did not noticed him) , he always can explain his meaning of the work and ask permission, after taking the picture.  

Edited July 4, 2020 by roelv1
forgot something

[analog-digital]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb roelv1:

Hello, Perhaps I overlooked it, but I couldn't find any desires on this forum for a tilt screen on a new Leica M (11). It surprises me. The Leica M is often considered as a street camera, but with  a tilt screen its capability for street work would get a huge increase. Now one could use the M for waist level work! And that is a big advantage. See for example what Sean Reid wrote about waist level work. Fuji understood it and made a tilt screen on the X Pro 3. I think and hope Leica will do the same. Even without AF such a screen is most desirable. Not only to be more discrete while working, but also to get pictures from a different, creative angle. Don't you agree?

Kind regards, Roel Visser. http://www.roelvisser.nl

 

You have the wrong brand .....

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[jwr50]

If I need a waist level finder (and generally I don't), I've got the Hasselblad for that.  Even on the Hasselblad, I usually use a prism finder.

A waist level finder would change what the Leica M has always been.  No thanks.

[adan]

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To protect the guilty, I quote no quotes.

However, the item above (an AYOOC finder) is a Leitz-made, Leitz-engineered, Leitz-provided accessory for Leica rangefinders. It is a part of the brand, and it is a part of what the Leica has always been. There were several similar LEICA waist-level finders made over the years - to expand the capabilities of the system.

Let's express what we want or do not want to use with our own Leicas. But let's not get into the tribal warfare of denigrating others' preferences just because they are not ours.

Especially if the attack is based on ignorance of Leica's history, and photographic history in general.

I use Leica M primarily because of the eye-level split-image focusing/viewing. However, I also use Leica for the general rendering of Mandler-era lenses, and I happen to like how Leica's sensors image as well. So I see no reason to buy another entire camera to get that imaging character for high-, low- or "waist" level viewing, if Leica can provide an optional accessory so that my M10 can handle that, too. While remaining compact and "unitary" (no hinges or arms to break off) at other times.

A modular system, in which everyone can assemble exactly the camera they need or want from accessories (including lenses - BTW), is part of the genius that made Leica (and Contax) so successful. Followed by Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Nikon, and Canon.

Not everyone wants 21 or 28 or 90mm or 135 lenses. So should Leica just no longer provide the interchangeable/modular lens mount?

Edited July 4, 2020 by adan

[tom.w.bn]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb evikne:

The only benefit I can see with a tilt screen, is if I could flip it inwards so I didn't see it at all.

But in that case, an M10-D would be even better. 😄

You can't do that with a tilting screen, it's mechanically not possible. Tilt screen and flip screen are two different things.

[tom.w.bn]

When you look at the sum of street photos of many years then I don't think that so many were taken with a tilted screen or an around-the-corner-lens. For me currently the most popular street camera is a digital Ricoh GR. No tilted screen and even no viewfinder but extremely good handling and image quality (especially the current GR III).

 

[mujk]

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What if Leica FOTOS were available for Google Glass? You could point your M in any direction and look in another direction.

[motard]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Robert Blanko:

From the legal and ethical point of view, waist level photography apparently aims at taking photos of people who do not notice this and - if they would notice would likely never agree. Apart from the fact that this is illegal in many jurisdictions, this is IMHO ethically unacceptable without further discussion.  If I would trap such waist level shooter taking a photo of me without asking, he would learn his lesson immediately...

Exactly my point of view! I was wondering already for a while that nobody seemed to care.

Edited July 4, 2020 by motard

[Robert Blanko]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb roelv1:

Without it, a lot of great pictures would never have been made. To make it worse for you, Paul Strand and Helen Levitt even used mirror attachments in front of their lenses (like a Bower) to be completely inconspicuous. And the great work of Vivian Maier mainly was made at waist level. Illegal? That depends. I know enough cases where a photographer was sued for published street work in a book, whilst the subject concerned was captured in a lets say unflattering way. The court judged it legal because of the freedom of expression. An accuser only has a change if he can prove that he suffers from harmful consequences because of the picture.  However if a photographer does have moral problems ( if the subject did not noticed him) , he always can explain his meaning of the work and ask permission, after taking the picture.  

In Europe at least the data protection directive IMHO changed the game, irrespective of the „freedom of expression“ (whatever this means). 

[Jeffry Abt]

If Leica could create a Rolleiflex type camera it  would sell like hotcakes! The Rolleiflex  allows the photographer and the subject to bond, as the photograph is made. The Rolleiflex  established this concept! 

[roelv1]

1 hour ago, Robert Blanko said:

In Europe at least the data protection directive IMHO changed the game, irrespective of the „freedom of expression“ (whatever this means). 

 The judgment of the court about what I wrote was in 2012. It was in Europe, Amsterdam to be exact. Also later, again in Amsterdam in another lawsuit, the photographer won his case.  

[strangeboy]

On 7/3/2020 at 5:07 AM, roelv1 said:

Hello, Perhaps I overlooked it, but I couldn't find any desires on this forum for a tilt screen on a new Leica M (11). It surprises me. The Leica M is often considered as a street camera, but with  a tilt screen its capability for street work would get a huge increase. Now one could use the M for waist level work! And that is a big advantage. See for example what Sean Reid wrote about waist level work. Fuji understood it and made a tilt screen on the X Pro 3. I think and hope Leica will do the same. Even without AF such a screen is most desirable. Not only to be more discrete while working, but also to get pictures from a different, creative angle. Don't you agree?

Kind regards, Roel Visser. http://www.roelvisser.nl

 

With all due respect... this idea sounds just vomitous.
IMHO, the only reason to shoot a rangefinder camera, is to create your composition within the rangefinder.
So much has already been ruined by the relentless pursuit of convenience.
This is like drilling a hole into the side of a Stradivarius so as to add a pick-up and plug it into an amp. 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

In Europe at least the data protection directive IMHO changed the game, irrespective of the „freedom of expression“ (whatever this means). 

As far as I know here in the UK the Data Protection Act changed very little - if anything - as far as snapping members of the public in public places is concerned;

"Taking photos in a public place is not illegal. The only time an offence is committed is if the photographs being taken are considered to be indecent. There is no law stating that you can't take photographs in public. This includes taking photos that include other people's children or taking photos of children directly. An offence will, however, have been committed if the photographs taken are indecent.

"Public Place" is not defined in legislation. A public place is usually a place to which the public are allowed to have access freely and without payment or permission. This includes any public highway or footpath. The inside of a car is also considered as a public place, unless it is parked on private property.

You may take photographs of people or objects (including buildings) whilst in a public place. With a few exceptions the owners of the property cannot prevent you from doing so and people cannot generally object to having their photographs taken.

In the UK you do not have to get the permission from people you photograph whilst they are in a public place. Using and selling images of people in a public place is usually acceptable if undertaken with a view to being used for any journalistic or artistic material.

However if you intend to sell the image commercially or use it for a commercial purpose (for example to promote a product) it is normally recommended to get people to sign a model release form..."

Philip.

[FrozenInTime]

A tilt / flip screen would be very much suitable for the TL3 where there is already a great touch UI and no other buttons.

[Maarten]

Roel, I am not a fan of your tilting screen idea, but I love your website and your photography!

[LBJ2]

Again, the mobile phone via Fotos App Remote can help with awkward positions where I would normally use a tilt screen. Pre focused/Zone focused of course but better than lying yourself on the ground to compose or can also be used for composing while shooting over people in a crowd. 

Very useful for tabletop tripod or normal tripod use as well. I know, I know. I didn’t learn photography with a Rangefinder, so I thankfully I never knew about the tripod taboo until it was too late. 😎

Edited July 4, 2020 by LBJ2

[farnz]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

As far as I know here in the UK the Data Protection Act changed very little - if anything - as far as snapping members of the public in public places is concerned;

"Taking photos in a public place is not illegal. The only time an offence is committed ... <snipped for convenience>

I completely agree.  In the UK the over-riding principle applies that "there is no expectation of privacy in a public place".

 

5 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

In Europe at least the data protection directive IMHO changed the game, irrespective of the „freedom of expression“ (whatever this means).

Actually the European General Data Protection Regulations 2016/679 changed little for photography because that's not what it was aimed at.  It was aimed at preventing individuals' personal data from being exploited for profit.  Peoples' faces, for example, do not qualify as 'personal data' and other legislation exists to prevent one's face etc from being exploited such as defamation legislation in the event that someone misidentifies your likeness or makes unfounded derogatory remarks about you.

Pete.

[Guest BlackBarn]

On 7/3/2020 at 10:38 PM, roelv1 said:

Well, I'm working as a pro for more than 25 years now with the M system and did a lot of street work

Sounds like you’ve been working without this option for some time. Are you saying that not having a tilt screen is stopping you from shooting the M from the waist for street?  

Street photographer Alan Schaller said he had a very good sense of distance say 2/3 meters away and sets his focus on the M to that and shoots from the waist without worrying about focusing. Others set the aperture to a wider in focus field and do similar. 

Imagine there are a number of techniques to explore or considering using other camera systems before opting for the redesign of the M simply because it would be a ‘nice to have thing’ just for capturing those  ‘unique moments’ during street photography.

[onasj]

If you want a (pseudo)-waist-level shooting experience, the current EVF, which is quite a bit less expensive than current prices on the hard-to-find AYOOC, allows you to flip up and lock the eyepiece so you are looking at the ground while shooting in front of you.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[johnwolf]

For those of you citing GDPR, could you tell me if this IDPC article reflects the current reality?

My reading of it supports Robert Blanko's position stated above. I was not aware of this implication of the regulation. Thank you.

John

 

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by johnwolf