Abandoning the Leica M10

[poli]

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There are several treads about the m-d and m10-d on this forum and you will find similar remarks about ‘better’ solutions. I dont know why. I dont think it would have been different with another title. To me it almost feels like telling you purchased a leica on a general photoforum and you need to defend your choice. 🤣 

We all have different perspectives on things. I am there with you and i also have an m10-d (before i had an m-d). And completely understand you. Anyway, just enjoy your camera!

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[mujk]

I fully understand why particularly photographers with a film M background find the M10-D attractive and why those who have entered the M system in the digital era don't see the point in leaving features out. The same probably applies also for the debate about other possible "improvements", such as an EVF-only M, autofocus, video etc.

 

[darylgo]

1 hour ago, Mikep996 said:

  I didn't realize that my approach would generate negativity.  Poor understanding  of human nature on my part.  

The title was quite humorous, there’s many cultures and English is not primary for all, often times meanings are misunderstood.  Furthermore, Leica is an experience that is misunderstood both outside the community and the screenless  
M’s garner that within.   

Edited July 5, 2020 by darylgo

[T25UFO]

3 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

I chose the title specifically to get people to read the thread, thinking folks would find it humorous when, in reading it, saw I wasn't REALLY turning my back on the M10 system.   I didn't realize that my approach would generate negativity.  Poor understanding  of human nature on my part.  Sorry!  

 

Hi Mike,

Nothing wrong with the headline.  The whole point of a headline is to draw people in - media and advertising companies do this all the time.  Forums are places for lively debate and that's what you have generated here, so again, nothing wrong with that.

I wouldn't say the majority of responses are negative, but rather they question the cost to change, which is a totally different (and subjective) issue.  When the M10-P came out, some people made the change from M10, but that didn't generate the same critical comment even though the benefits were incremental - quieter shutter, level gauge, etc.  The M10-D does seem to promote a different response, not sure why, but people either get it or they don't.  I get it, hence my response (post #2) was positive.

I arrived at the 'D' through a slightly different route.  I was a long term Leica film user and I when I saw the M60 I really wanted that camera, but couldn't afford it.  When the original MD came out I bought it and loved the camera, but my eyesight is gradually deteriorating (not bad, just not as good as it was) and with no EVF option I was missing critical focus, particularly with the 90mm lens.  So eventually sold the MD and went the SL route.  I took some really wonderful images, particularly with the SL 50mm Summilux, but it's such a heavy camera and lens combo, and I was drawn back to rangefinder when the M10 was announced.  The viewfinder was (is) so much better than the 240 series.

When the M10-D was released, I just went full circle back to screen less, and it has the added advantage of an EVF if needed.  Yes, there is a cost, and I have lost some money on all the changes (and so called upgrades) but Leica ownership has never been cheap.  When you buy a new car, it loses around 25% of its value as you drive out of the showroom; doesn't stop people trading in cars for the next model, and car ownership has cost me considerably more than camera ownership over the years!

So, if you are one of the minority who really get the screen less concept, then do the swap, pay the price, and go for the 'D'.  You will love it, and as I said in post #2, take a look at the Retro 50mm Summilux - it makes a great combination with the 'D'.

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by T25UFO

[poli]

16 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

So, if you are one of the minority who really get the screen less concept, then do the swap, pay the price, and go for the 'D'.  You will love it, and as I said in post #2, take a look at the Retro 50mm Summilux - it makes a great combination with the 'D'.

Which version of the retro summilux do you use?

[T25UFO]

1 hour ago, poli said:

Which version of the retro summilux do you use?

This one - seen here on the Monochrom but looks much the same on the D.  It's a little heavier than the regular version but feels good and nicely balanced on the camera.  The build quality is just superb and I really like the old design focussing ring.

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[budjames]

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On 7/5/2020 at 1:26 AM, chasdfg said:

Or buying one of those half cases, like Leica's, with the LCD cover.  https://www.leicastoremanchester.com/leica-protector-leather.html

I know it's not the same, but it gets you 90% there, or more, if you can adopt the same philosophy to shooting. Aperture, ISO, Shutter speed all at your fingertips + the on/off switch where you are used to. Exposure compensation via the back thumbdial. No LCD. 

It is a bit thicker with a case on though. And the M10-D does feel nicer in hand (with or without the faux lever), as the lack of LCD allowed my hand to fall into place nicely at the back of the camera with no LCD in the way.

I agree with you. I use the Leica half case on my M10s because I'm particular about keeping my gear looking good for potential resale or trade-in values. I just can't get comfortable with hanging a $11k+ camera and lens from a shoulder strap and banging it into things.

When I travel, I carry my M10 in a Billingham Hadley Pro bag and use a wrist strap. In this situation, I don't use the half case, however, I keep the half case in my suitcase to use if I want to go out with just the camera with a neck strap.

Here's a good shout out for PeakDesign quick release strap connectors. I have the lugs on all my cameras so that I can quickly switch between several neck straps and a wrist strap in seconds. It's a brilliant system.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

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[Jeff S]

9 hours ago, budjames said:

I just can't get comfortable with hanging a $11k+ camera and lens from a shoulder strap and banging it into things.

 

 

 

I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that approach either, so have instead decided not to bang into things with an M (35+ years so far).  Insurance covers bad stuff that warranty does not.  I do like the PD release system on my SL2, though. 😊

Jeff

[TG14]

On 7/3/2020 at 6:37 PM, pippy said:

I'm not going to answer for the OP - and I 'only' have the older M-D 262 - but IMX and in actual use not having a screen at all makes the whole shooting experience a very different proposition than just being able to turn a screen off and for a number of reasons. It's something one really needs to try out for oneself because the reality is possibly not quite what one might assume it will be...

Philip.

Can you elaborate on this? Turning off the screen would serve the purpose but the temptation still exist.

[PatrickN]

I can totally understand, why one would prefer the M10-D instead of a „regular“ M10 with a screen. I‘m in a struggle, since I bought my M10-P and 3 days later, the M10-D was announced. Since this day I can’t decide if I made the right decision or if I should have waited and gotten an M10-D. The brain would have decided for the P, but the heart is still in favour of the D. I‘m writing this although I have very limited experience with film photography, I‘ve never used a film Leica and the M10-P is my start into the M-system. 

[Photon42]

I did move from an M10 to the M10D 15 months back. It is a lovely camera, takes the same great pictures like any M10 and just happens to be right for any sort of candid snapshot style work, where the moment is everything. Saying this camera is a lesser camera like an M10 is like saying the Monochrom is nonsense because it lacks color. The whole M experience is not about comparing functionality. Else we all would use Sony cameras, I guess.

I have not had any larger exposure errors so far. This camera helps me staying focused. Of course it has its limitations, but that's the whole point of the M10D and even of the whole M line-up. I would not use it with studio lighting, of course, and for meticulous framing, there are better options. No one stops us luckily to buy more than one camera 😎 We can always have the M10D alongside to a SL2 or - god forbid - a Z7 and use some of the same lenses.

In my eyes, the M10D really excels in everything street shooting, if you know a bit what you are doing. Not being a big fan of the Fotos app, I like to carry a small SD card dongle for my phone just for the occasional event I actually want to upload a photo instantly. I do not use the EVF often, and then mostly for unusually low shooting perspectives.

[pippy]

6 hours ago, TG14 said:

Can you elaborate on this? Turning off the screen would serve the purpose but the temptation still exist.

I can only speak in any detail about my own experience with the M-D 262; the M10-D is broadly similar but there are a few differences but in general...and apologies in advance for being rather long-winded in my reply...

Previously with (say) my M9-P the first thing I would do before I headed out to take snaps would be to set up the camera for the conditions I expected to encounter. During the day I would usually change some parameters as the situation required such as altering colour saturation and contrast level etc. Although most of my images end up as monochrome I would still normally shoot in colour but quite often I would switch to black and white so that if I reviewed the image on the rear screen it would more closely represent the intended 'final image' and, if neccessary, I could alter exposure settings (etc.) to modify the file-capture. The Histogram panel was used quite a bit if I was shooting in tricky lighting conditions. As mentioned elsewhere latterly I didn't usually have the screen 'On' but it was a very useful tool to have to hand as a sort-of safety-net and it was a tool I used as and when neccessary. Often I would forget to set the lens' profile if I was using one of my uncoded lenses and have used, as an example, a 35mm with the profile of a 90mm. I don't know how much of a difference this would make but it has annoyed me when I've discovered, later on, my mistake.

With the M-D, ISO apart, there are no parameters to set so immediately all the different possibilities of colour saturation, contrast-level, DNG / JPEG, review mode etc. can be put out of one's mind. This is by far the biggest psychological change the lack of screen dictates. Nothing can be altered so don't waste time thinking about it; just get on with shooting.

The impossibility of reviewing anything removes even the slightest temptation to look back on what has been shot and, instead, allows one to concentrate fully on 'the next image' rather than considering the possible merits, pro's and con's of 'the last one'. This is the biggest operational change encountered. You cannot see what you have already shot so don't waste time thinking about it; just get on with shooting.

In the hand the clam-shell body of the M-D is actually thicker (by a few millimeres) than the M8 / M9 range but, because there is no screen, and no buttons either side of this screen but instead just the traditional-style leather covering the camera feels slimmer than the cameras with screens. Not only does it feel slimmer but in a tactile sense it also feels much nicer with just having a smooth-grained leather surface in one's hands. This is the biggest physical difference.

As the M-D only records DNG files the processing side of things takes on a different aspect as compared with shooting in JPEG format (which I would do quite regularly). Having to give each image a more considered final 'process' is, as compared to shooting JPEGs, the biggest IQ difference.

So that's about it. Not having a screen - as opposed to being able to turn off a screen - might appear at first to be more of a psychological difference but in practice (IMX) this lack of a screen changes so much about the way one approaches shooting it dictates one adopt a completely different mind-set which is why I wrote, way back in post #4;

"It's something one really needs to try out for oneself because the reality is possibly not quite what one might assume it will be..."

"Just Get On With Shooting!"............

Philip.

Edited July 7, 2020 by pippy

[scott kirkpatrick]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

..... Not only does it feel slimmer but in a tactile sense it also feels much nicer with just having a smooth-grained leather surface in one's hands. This is the biggest physical difference.

As the M-D only records DNG files the processing side of things takes on a different aspect as compared with shooting in JPEG format (which I would do quite regularly). Having to give each image a more considered final 'process' is, as compared to shooting JPEGs, the biggest IQ difference.

So that's about it. Not having a screen - as opposed to being able to turn off a screen - might appear at first to be more of a psychological difference but in practice (IMX) this lack of a screen changes so much about the way one approaches shooting it dictates one adopt a completely different mind-set ....

I agree with the first comment -- having largeish hands, it is nice to have all that camera back to hold onto.  I have spent considerable time with an M2, so the switch and exposure offset controls in the back feel familiar and I even like having the faux film winder to hold onto.

The default setting on the M10-D is DNG-only, but with Fotos, one can set it to get JPGs or both, and set all the various JPG contrast and color options.  I had to check the manual to confirm this as it had never occurred to me to try it.  The M10-D is based on the M10-P, and has the same shutter.  The M10 and M10P have a live view histogram and the M10P has a level indicator which can be seen on their LCDs. But only the histogram appears on the Visoflex screen with the M10-D and neither indicator makes it through to the "remote" screen of Fotos. Both of those are useful in the act of shooting a picture.  I think the M-D philosophy is to suppress anything that can wait until later, especially chimping.

Edited July 7, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Phil_P]

I have oft pined after screenless and considered switching to the M10-D but decided to keep my M10-P and bought a slightly brassed M-D that came up on a site  recently.  Idea being to chuck the   M-D in my bag for everyday use without feeling the need to be too precious about it. Actually like the slightly thicker body as people have commented, with no screen and being able to put your thumb on the back. For me the simplicity of it for use on casual outings has been really inspiring and a joy to use.... so much so the P hasn't had a look in to date.

[Robert Blanko]

Am 5.7.2020 um 07:26 schrieb chasdfg:

Or buying one of those half cases, like Leica's, with the LCD cover.  https://www.leicastoremanchester.com/leica-protector-leather.html

I know it's not the same, but it gets you 90% there, or more, if you can adopt the same philosophy to shooting. Aperture, ISO, Shutter speed all at your fingertips + the on/off switch where you are used to. Exposure compensation via the back thumbdial. No LCD. 

It is a bit thicker with a case on though. And the M10-D does feel nicer in hand (with or without the faux lever), as the lack of LCD allowed my hand to fall into place nicely at the back of the camera with no LCD in the way.

This is exactly how I use my M10. The screen is almost always covered, except when I have to access the menu.

Nevertheless, the case adds some bulky touch (although not too much) and I don‘t like the concept that you have to cover a device. It‘s like with most iPhones which are covered under awful plastics, thereby destryoing the nice optics and haptics (can speak for myself). Thus, it is a kind of imperfect design that the device would not stand the use (or at least you believe it could not stand the normal use) without cover. Insofar I fully understand the lust for an M10-D and I was close to pull the trigger (well, rational considerations stopped me...) 😀

[pippy]

1 hour ago, Phil_P said:

...For me the simplicity of it for use on casual outings has been really inspiring and a joy to use.... so much so the P hasn't had a look in to date.

Yup. Pretty much the same here (post #6). This 'Joy' in use is easily one of the most-frequently mentioned attractions of the camera by M-D owners.

I'm sure the M10-D will be just as well-liked for the very same reason with those fortunate enough to acquire one.

Philip.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by pippy

[T25UFO]

7 hours ago, pippy said:

I can only speak in any detail about my own experience with the M-D 262; the M10-D is broadly similar but there are a few differences but in general...and apologies in advance for being rather long-winded in my reply...

Previously with (say) my M9-P the first thing I would do before I headed out to take snaps would be to set up the camera for the conditions I expected to encounter. During the day I would usually change some parameters as the situation required such as altering colour saturation and contrast level etc. Although most of my images end up as monochrome I would still normally shoot in colour but quite often I would switch to black and white so that if I reviewed the image on the rear screen it would more closely represent the intended 'final image' and, if neccessary, I could alter exposure settings (etc.) to modify the file-capture. The Histogram panel was used quite a bit if I was shooting in tricky lighting conditions. As mentioned elsewhere latterly I didn't usually have the screen 'On' but it was a very useful tool to have to hand as a sort-of safety-net and it was a tool I used as and when neccessary. Often I would forget to set the lens' profile if I was using one of my uncoded lenses and have used, as an example, a 35mm with the profile of a 90mm. I don't know how much of a difference this would make but it has annoyed me when I've discovered, later on, my mistake.

With the M-D, ISO apart, there are no parameters to set so immediately all the different possibilities of colour saturation, contrast-level, DNG / JPEG, review mode etc. can be put out of one's mind. This is by far the biggest psychological change the lack of screen dictates. Nothing can be altered so don't waste time thinking about it; just get on with shooting.

The impossibility of reviewing anything removes even the slightest temptation to look back on what has been shot and, instead, allows one to concentrate fully on 'the next image' rather than considering the possible merits, pro's and con's of 'the last one'. This is the biggest operational change encountered. You cannot see what you have already shot so don't waste time thinking about it; just get on with shooting.

In the hand the clam-shell body of the M-D is actually thicker (by a few millimeres) than the M8 / M9 range but, because there is no screen, and no buttons either side of this screen but instead just the traditional-style leather covering the camera feels slimmer than the cameras with screens. Not only does it feel slimmer but in a tactile sense it also feels much nicer with just having a smooth-grained leather surface in one's hands. This is the biggest physical difference.

As the M-D only records DNG files the processing side of things takes on a different aspect as compared with shooting in JPEG format (which I would do quite regularly). Having to give each image a more considered final 'process' is, as compared to shooting JPEGs, the biggest IQ difference.

So that's about it. Not having a screen - as opposed to being able to turn off a screen - might appear at first to be more of a psychological difference but in practice (IMX) this lack of a screen changes so much about the way one approaches shooting it dictates one adopt a completely different mind-set which is why I wrote, way back in post #4;

"It's something one really needs to try out for oneself because the reality is possibly not quite what one might assume it will be..."

"Just Get On With Shooting!"............

Philip.

I endorse everything said here and would add one additional comment.  When using the regular M10 the only benefit of the screen was to check focus - can never be absolutely sure when using a rangefinder.  I wear glasses for reading but not for taking photos - the diopter is just fine in that regard.  However, if I wanted to really check critical focus, I would have to put my glasses on to see the screen clearly, then take them off again to take the next photo!

So now I just trust my original judgement - it actually works most of the time.

[Fontan]

I admit, I am not a full time Leica/rangefinder shooter. That being said I have progressed from M8 to 240 to now M10 that I just acquired short while ago (and love it I might add). As you all know there is certainly a learning curve with rangefinder shooting, and this more so if you are used to modern day DSLR or other system (ie Hasselblad etc). For me it was a bit of frustrating experience in the beginning with M8, to say the least, with its screen being not very large, being cumbersome to check focus etc. But, in time I got used to it, not missing out on naming focus or exposure as much, and now to the point where I have the screened turned off completely. One of the first things I did when I got my M10 was to in fact turn off the screen. It was just that by the time I progressed to 240, it was just annoying for me that when I wanted to keep shooting it kept interfering and I just could not get in the flow of things. 

Now - I have never handled or shot with M10D, and yes I absolutely get the concept at its core. But for me the"temptation" to check is not there, and not able to access menu on the screen seems a bit of an nuisance that may (or may not) interfere with the shooting experience as a whole. 

There is also that when you are on an assignment - I may not have the luxury of being able to go back and repeat or replicate or encounter that exact situation that I was drawn to or forced to. So, intermittently, after 20-30 shots or so, I do check, but not on the screen (too small as my visual acuity not as good as before), but on iPad via Fotos, which is more or less acceptable for the purpose of checking. 

Your post certain is intriguing and makes me want to get my hands on a D and give it a run or two, to see how it affects my workflow of things for sure. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Fontan

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[evikne]

I really want an M10-D. I think it's the most beautiful M so far. I love the wind on lever, the Leica script on the top plate, and the shutter sound. And I don't need the screen. The bottom of the screen was the first place my M10 started to be worn, and it feels unnatural to touch the screen when I hold the camera. So I would love to get rid of it.

I like to challenge myself. I mostly photograph wide open with fast lenses, even when the subject is moving, and only with the RF. I photograph completely manually, and I don't even use the light meter. A camera without a screen to sneak peek at would be the ultimate challenge to me.

"Unfortunately" I bought my M10 a little too early, before the M10-D was launched, and now I have no possibility to afford a new camera. But I would definitely make an exchange like the OP, if I got the opportunity.

[IkarusJohn]

I'm sure your time will come with the M10-D, Evikne!

For most of my life, I've shot film.  First with a bellows rangefinder my father bought me (I can't remember how old I was - young), then a Canonet - I must have been about 10.  I progressed through various Nikons, but never gelled with digital as a concept.  I guess I was too wedded to the simplicity of frame, focus, aperture, shutter speed and ISO.  Then my gear got stolen and I wondered what to replace it with ...

My first digital (a Canon G10) was frustrating as hell.  All those menus, and I never worked out how to adjust the aperture.  The pictures were okay, but menus weren't my thing.

I looked at another film Nikon (F6, I think), the Canon 5D-II and others and they left me cold.  Then I heard about the new Leica M9, and was hooked!  Back to framing, focus, aperture, shutter and ISO!  White balance got me a bit confused, and the other options.  I tended to ignore the menus.  As time progressed, I added lenses and tried other systems (d800e, A7r etc), but loved the M camera.  Sensor corrosion ended my M9, but I stuck with my Monochrom (a great camera).  

Various "rationalisations" intervened and other dead ends appeared and went.  What I found is that each time I ventured into autofocus and video capability, my enjoyment was inversely proportional - I hated the menu options on all those cameras, the SL included (much as I like that camera).  I liked the M60, but really couldn't justify the expense (I did use it a lot).  When the M10 was released, I was using my Monochrom and SL.  That was it. I was in hospital being treated for leukaemia, and I thought wouldn't an M60 version of the M10-P be great?  Unlike the M60, you could fit the EVF if needed and it would run WiFi, so you could set menu options and review images if needed, but otherwise not bother with anything else when in use.  I emailed Stefan Daniel and suggested it to him.  Great idea, was his response.

The M10-D as released has more buttons than I would like (I actually have no idea what many of them do), but the camera is a return to the joy of photography for me.  It is my favourite camera, hands down (with the Monochrom a close second).  If I want lots of MP, and the best handling camera with medium format and weather sealing, I have an X1D-II; for travel, zoom, AF and all the things that piss me off about photography, I have an SL and 5 lenses; but the reason I bought into M cameras in the first place was manual focus, aperture on the barrel of the lens, shutter speed on the top deck where it belongs and ISO.  I don't change white balance, I only shoot DNG and I can't remember what else is in the Fotos menu.  Sometimes I use the EVF, but rarely.

I like your photos, and what strikes me is that you have mastered what many fail to realise - you need to look at the subject, not the camera, not the information in the viewfinder - the subject.  That's one of the many beauties of the rangefinder.  You talk to your subject, watch the interaction, and take the picture at the right moment.  With the M10-D, there are no distractions.  The digital benefit, though, is that i can go out with friends and family, take a few images, then sit down over a beer or a coffee, review the images on my phone, download the ones i like, do some quick processing and then share them.  People love this, and I like that relaxed period of looking at what you've done after the event.

For the reasons I use an M camera, I don't want a screen, I don't want menus - I just want the physical controls and the viewfinder.  It's liberating.  The camera become a tool which does not get in the way.