How to measure the shutter speed on an analog M??

[Mucleica]

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Dear community, 

 

Ist there a reasonable way to measure the different shutter speeds and their accuracy on your M without any special equipment?   

I want to estimate if a M camera needs service.

 

I saw some apps that measure the time via the noise the shutter makes, but this did not seem very reliable to me.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks 

Markus 

[Guest JMF]

11 minutes ago, Mucleica said:

Dear community, 

 

Ist there a reasonable way to measure the different shutter speeds and their accuracy on your M without any special equipment?   

I want to estimate if a M camera needs service.

 

I saw some apps that measure the time via the noise the shutter makes, but this did not seem very reliable to me.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks 

Markus 

Dear Markus,

unfortunately, the accuracy of the speed of the traveling shutter might start well and be accurate at the begining of the exposure and not anymore  when reaching the other side of the frame, so a proper equipment is necessary to have an accurate measurement accross the frame.

Best, Jean-Marc.

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[TomB_tx]

It used to be easy when TVs used CRT displays, as you could look through the shutter (or shoot a test roll) at different speeds and count tge CRT scan lines that were illuminated. However this doesn't work with modern flat panel TVs.

I do a lot with old cameras, so I use one of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Camera-shutter-and-curtain-tester-for-speeds-up-to-1-8000th-with-light-source/153913755485?hash=item23d5f9875d:g:f38AAOSwGVJbXCtR

It works very well. He has cheaper models that aren't as flexible.

[spydrxx]

I bought an inexpensive electronic shutter speed tester on the big auction site years ago, and it has proved invaluable. One of the things I learned is that each shutter actuation isn't exactly the same as its predecessor. With a shutter tester you can take several test readings, average them out or determine the deviation from the stated speed. I found for most old cameras I've acquired there was about a ± 1/3 stop from the stated speed, which was within mfr tolerances, good enough for films without compensation. Greatest variances seemed to occur around 1/1000 sec and greater. 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, Mucleica said:

Dear community, 

 

Ist there a reasonable way to measure the different shutter speeds and their accuracy on your M without any special equipment?   

I want to estimate if a M camera needs service.

 

I saw some apps that measure the time via the noise the shutter makes, but this did not seem very reliable to me.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks 

Markus 

Use a separate meter to set your exposures from, judge the result against the camera. So if the meter says 1/60th at whatever f/stop and you think the resulting image looks under exposed your camera is running fast, and etc. Of course it all depends on you keeping metering to a strict regime, so use a grey card to meter off.

Edited June 30, 2020 by 250swb

[oldwino]

There should be an app for that...

[Einst_Stein]

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 Mechanical camera is easy. I just measure the 1S. I fire the shutter when the clock second ticks, then compare the shutter close sound with the clock next second tick. If they match well, the rest of shutter speed should be right. 

Electronic controlled shutter is hard to tell.

[jerzy]

Am 2.7.2020 um 01:18 schrieb Einst_Stein:

If they match well, the rest of shutter speed should be right. 

sorry, this is not correct.  Firstly, slow speeds have separate clockwork which is not engaged otherwise and secondly, if motion of one of the curtains is out of tolerance this might have no impact at 1 second but might have significant impact at 1/1000. Method described by TomB with CRT is good assuming you have an old tube TV. I am using combination of digitial shutter tester and lightdrum (Leitz device, described in this forum on other occasions).'
I never used sound App but heard good feedback.

 

[TomB_tx]

A good digital shutter tester will measure the exposure time at both ends of travel to show the consistency across the frame, and will also measure the curtain travel time, which is needed to properly adjust spring tension.

I have 3 IIIf cameras, one was serviced by DAG and the other two by another tech. The one DAG worked on has the quietest and smoothest shutter - which indicates the curtain travel time was set carefully, not just the exposure time. 

[Einst_Stein]

5 hours ago, jerzy said:

sorry, this is not correct.  Firstly, slow speeds have separate clockwork which is not engaged otherwise and secondly, if motion of one of the curtains is out of tolerance this might have no impact at 1 second but might have significant impact at 1/1000. Method described by TomB with CRT is good assuming you have an old tube TV. I am using combination of digitial shutter tester and lightdrum (Leitz device, described in this forum on other occasions).'
I never used sound App but heard good feedback.

 

It depend on the precision you want. To be professionally accurate, nothing can replace the professional tool.

What I mentioned is the way I use in the used market of photo fair, when the sophisticated method is impossible. In such cases, the 1 second check works pretty well. I have used this method to check the mechsnical cameras and it has not failed me yet.

[Ko.Fe.]

On sunny, clear sky day use S16 rule and bw film. Take pictures of same area of the sky, develop, look at the negative. If exposures are same density on various speeds, shutter is fine. I use ISO 100, 50 film and for low speeds taking even view exposures in the shadow.  

[romualdo]

I'm looking into the Photoplug Shutter Speed Tester (light sensor plugs into smartphone & use downloadable (free) App "Shutter-Speed")

https://www.filmomat.eu/shop/photoplug

"The PhotoPlug Shutter Speed Tester

With this little plug, you can measure the shutter speeds of analog cameras - just with your smartphone! It contains a small light-sensor which detects the actual amount of light passing through your camera. Just connect it to the headphone jack of your smartphone and turn it into a portable shutter-speed-tester. More information: www.filmomat.eu/photoplug

Your smartphone has no headphone jack? Just use an adapter cable - the PhotoPlug will work perfectly fine."

[Edgar1920]

Hi Markus,

 

I have once tested and adjusted my shutter curtain speed by using a video camera with 600fps and counting frames. You can see my post here:

 

 

Maybe this helps you.

Best regards,

Frank

[Paulus]

Am 30.6.2020 um 21:21 schrieb Mucleica:

Dear community, 

 

Ist there a reasonable way to measure the different shutter speeds and their accuracy on your M without any special equipment?   

I want to estimate if a M camera needs service.

 

I saw some apps that measure the time via the noise the shutter makes, but this did not seem very reliable to me.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks 

Markus 

Since 1998 I have never measured the speed of my MP's.

The difference between 1/500 and 1/1000 will not always be ok, but the rest did not bother me. Wenn the speed is really off, you will notice it, after making a slide film , the light will not be correct due to it's speed+ diafragm ration. Then it's time to CLA it. about once every 10 years I suppose. It worked rather well for me.   

[UliWer]

Am 5.7.2020 um 10:30 schrieb romualdo:

I'm looking into the Photoplug Shutter Speed Tester (light sensor plugs into smartphone & use downloadable (free) App "Shutter-Speed")

After you mentioned it I ordererd the Photoplug and tested it after I got it today.

The plug produces a graph on the app and you have to look for the „peaks“ in this graph. This worked pretty well after I learned how to interpret the graphs - but only for slow to mid times (1/125). With short times the graph becomes indistinct and you have to guess where to measure - which of course doesn‘t help especially with short times. I think that‘s the reason the app only allows you to set 1/500 as shortest time.

My M3 - which I believe never saw any service - seems to be excellent:  longer to mid times  almost spot on with 0.9 for 1 second being the largest deviation. With 1/250 and 1/500 it seemed to be too fast by approx. 1/3 stop, though this may be due to the problems of interpreting the graph. My M2 which has had a Leica service has to wait until I finished the film.

My Contax bodies - IIa and prewar II - were not much worse in mid times, the short times were completely unmeasurable. The prewar II was much too slow with long times - about double from 1/50 upwards - which is something one can expect. 

I wanted to show screenshots from the results but had to realize that the App froze.... Now I can only try to reload it again and all the saved measurements will be gone.

So the Plug-App-combination is not too expensive but far from perfect.

[Erato]

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[romualdo]

4 hours ago, UliWer said:

After you mentioned it I ordererd the Photoplug and tested it after I got it today.

The plug produces a graph on the app and you have to look for the „peaks“ in this graph. This worked pretty well after I learned how to interpret the graphs - but only for slow to mid times (1/125). With short times the graph becomes indistinct and you have to guess where to measure - which of course doesn‘t help especially with short times. I think that‘s the reason the app only allows you to set 1/500 as shortest time.

My M3 - which I believe never saw any service - seems to be excellent:  longer to mid times  almost spot on with 0.9 for 1 second being the largest deviation. With 1/250 and 1/500 it seemed to be too fast by approx. 1/3 stop, though this may be due to the problems of interpreting the graph. My M2 which has had a Leica service has to wait until I finished the film.

My Contax bodies - IIa and prewar II - were not much worse in mid times, the short times were completely unmeasurable. The prewar II was much too slow with long times - about double from 1/50 upwards - which is something one can expect. 

I wanted to show screenshots from the results but had to realize that the App froze.... Now I can only try to reload it again and all the saved measurements will be gone.

So the Plug-App-combination is not too expensive but far from perfect.

thanks for the overview - I almost purchased this a month ago but there are shipping issues (Germany to Australia) & can only use DHL which is too expensive (IMHO) for such a small item so I'm going to wait till things normalise (may be quite a while though). I have the app but not the sensor - can still be used but not as accurate (works on sound). I agree that sometimes it's hard to determine the correct "peak" in the graph. What would be interesting to attempt would be to use the app without sensor then app with sensor & compare the differences on your cameras (how much variation is there between the two techniques), cheers Stephen

[Frase]

Use a dslr set on b using the shutter that is to be tested. Its works great just google it and its quite simple and far easier than the photoplug thing.

[Steve Ricoh]

On 7/5/2020 at 9:30 AM, romualdo said:

I'm looking into the Photoplug Shutter Speed Tester (light sensor plugs into smartphone & use downloadable (free) App "Shutter-Speed")

https://www.filmomat.eu/shop/photoplug

"The PhotoPlug Shutter Speed Tester

With this little plug, you can measure the shutter speeds of analog cameras - just with your smartphone! It contains a small light-sensor which detects the actual amount of light passing through your camera. Just connect it to the headphone jack of your smartphone and turn it into a portable shutter-speed-tester. More information: www.filmomat.eu/photoplug

Your smartphone has no headphone jack? Just use an adapter cable - the PhotoPlug will work perfectly fine."

Here’s another take on the same product from silver grain classics. (Also other interesting articles.)

https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2020/06/introducing-the-photoplug-easy-shutter-speed-testing-for-your-smartphone/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[chema]

with a turntable.