Is my M4-P fitted with a 0.85 magnification viewfinder?

[psf]

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Hello everyone, this is my first post, as last week I acquired a M4-P camera. It is a well used one but with a reasonably clear finder and the shutter working fine. After some research I settled on the M4-P as I liked the idea of having ample room for the 35mm frame lines and, eventually, being able to use a 28mm. It also fit my budget.

When I received it I noticed that the viewfinder is flush with the top plate although the camera was built in 1983 and has the 2 flash sockets. I also noticed that there are no frame lines for either 28mm nor 75mm, and the 35mm frame lines sit quite on the edges of the finder. I'm a bit disappointed, as I was expecting to get a shooting experience with the 35mm similar to the one I'm getting with the 50mm.

Could that be that the camera had a rangefinder modification to a 0.85 magnification? or it's just a replacement with m4-2 frame lines mask?

I could be happy with the camera as it is, but I think that I'd always have liked the extra room for the 35mm lines and the 28mm.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers!

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Edited June 22, 2020 by psf

[adan]

M4/M4-2 frameline masks - the "signature" is in the arrangement of the lines for 90mm, with three vertical lines at each end (and thus a better definition of where the corners meet).

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As to magnification and the 35mm framelines, keep in mind that the .72x viewfinder was never originally intended to cover 28mm lenses. It was (correctly, IMHO) limited to 35mm from 1958-1981 (M2/M4/M5/M4-2). In those cameras, the 35mm framelines are a bit larger. And thus more accurate for framing, but also have less room around them - they were squished down a tiny bit to make room for the 28mm lines post-1981.

How visible they are depends on whether one wears glasses, or even the shape of one's face, or if one is left- or right-eyed (how close one can press one's eye to the finder). As a right-eyed viewer with glasses, I never had problems seeing the 35 lines in an M4/M4-2. But never expected to see much beyond the lines.

I guess it is technically possible that someone also had a .85x viewfinder installed at some point (along with the older masks) - although usually the flush cover glass is marked with a tiny "0.85x" in the right lower corner (as seen from the front).

But the general interchangeability of viewfinders and viewfinder parts means it is not that uncommon to find unique combinations. Like flush glass on M4-Ps, as Leitz was transitioning to the M6 and building both at once (and experimenting).

Leica can - once their service operations re-open - very probably swap out your masks again, to the M4-P (or at least current MP) 28/35/50/75/90/135 set. And even back to .72x (if you do actually have a .85x finder).

There was a time Leica would even customize the sets further (e.g. keeping the 28 slits, but covering the 75 or 135 slits, for those who wanted "pure" 50mm amd 35mm views). But that service may no longer be offered. And it was always €€€€!

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by adan

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[psf]

Thank you very much for your reply, Adan.

From what you say then I must be having a 0.72 with the M4/M4-2 lines. My question on the magnification came after looking at comparisons of M6 viewfinders. That would explain that I expected more "air" outside the 35 lines. I'll eventually send the camera for service, as the finder could be cleaner and there's like a large bubble in the rangefinder patch, and I'll know what is going on exactly.

Now I'm waiting for the first roll to come back from the lab.

Thanks again,

Pablo

[250swb]

If the photo of the viewfinder is accurate I'd say the 28mm frameline is there but maybe you aren't putting your eye close enough to see it around the extremity of the viewfinder window. There is nothing unusual about the flush window, as Andy says  the M4-P went through every modification toward the end of the production run until it became essentially an M6 without a meter, I have one with every update possible. You can't simply add a flush window into an older top plate because it's different top plate.

Edited June 22, 2020 by 250swb

[andrew01]

Looks like 0.72 to me.  I have an 0.72 M6 and the relative size of the frames is the same.  The 28mm frame in the 0.72 is of course completely useless but I don’t shoot this focal length on my M cameras.  I also have an 0.9x M3 and the 50mm nicely fills the frame (similar to the 35mm frame in the 0.72 finders).

Edited June 22, 2020 by andrew01

[Mute-on]

In short, it looks like the M4-2 frameline mask which had no 28mm framelines, and the same wider frameline coverage of M4 and earlier ... 

The following thread gives some useful insights ...

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Mute-on

[psf]

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Thanks again for all the replies and the additional information. The picture of the viewfinder was taken with my cell phone, and it definitely can see the 35 framelines better than me without glasses! It would be interesting to know when in the history of the camera the framline mask was changed...

Cheers

[250swb]

The frameline mask was never changed after the M4-P was introduced, unless the owner had it changed. It was the M4-P that introduced the frameline for the 28mm and the 75mm which errm may go towards highlighting your problem. Yes you may have an older finder installed. So I now understand, I forgot about the 75mm frame.

Edited June 23, 2020 by 250swb

[psf]

Yes, thanks... it's what it looks like. I'll live with that happily by now....

[edstock]

I'll just reiterate what has been said. I have an M4-P,  I also have an M7. Wearing glasses and trying to see around the frame and the area outside can be a pain. What you can do is get a diopter set to your vision. This eliminates the need to wear glasses if you do. I have diopters on both my M's which allows me to put my eye right up close. 

[edshreds]

8 hours ago, edstock said:

I'll just reiterate what has been said. I have an M4-P,  I also have an M7. Wearing glasses and trying to see around the frame and the area outside can be a pain. What you can do is get a diopter set to your vision. This eliminates the need to wear glasses if you do. I have diopters on both my M's which allows me to put my eye right up close. 

Edstock, do you find this needed just for 28mm lenses? I have an M3 and M7 (.72 finder). I wear glasses, and have never had a problem with the 50mm framelines on my M3. The M7 should be returning from CLA/overseas shortly and I'm thinking of using a 35mm lens on it, but ideally I would prefer to skip the diopter and just use my normal glasses like I have been. Think this will cause an issue?

[250swb]

You'll see the 35mm framelines on your M7 easily with glasses on. The difficulty with having a diopter and taking your glasses off to take a picture is it slows the whole picture taking experience down, or if you leave them off you can walk into a lamppost or fall down a manhole, not to forget the business of crossing the road. If you use glasses with a flexible frame even the 28mm frameline can be visible by squashing the viewfinder against your specs, it isn't perfect but it's possible to very quickly scan around the 28mm frame edges to see where things are. 

[TomB_tx]

I've worn glasses full time for 62 years, and have never had a problem with 35mm frame on a .72 VF. I could see more space around it without glasses, but strong astigmatism limits my options.

[edstock]

On 6/29/2020 at 11:03 PM, edshreds said:

Edstock, do you find this needed just for 28mm lenses? I have an M3 and M7 (.72 finder). I wear glasses, and have never had a problem with the 50mm framelines on my M3. The M7 should be returning from CLA/overseas shortly and I'm thinking of using a 35mm lens on it, but ideally I would prefer to skip the diopter and just use my normal glasses like I have been. Think this will cause an issue?

I use diopters on nearly all my cameras, as I dislike the distance caused by the glasses, distance to finder. The diopters allow me to focus, see, frame, photograph without glasses. As to your question, I will say if you can obtain a diopter by Leica try it. They are available out of the NYC stores for around 20-25 dollars.

[romualdo]

On 7/14/2020 at 9:53 AM, edstock said:

They are available out of the NYC stores for around 20-25 dollars.

Wow!! where do you source them at that price? Cheapest I've seen them (new) is round $US120

They are one of the great Leica "rip-offs" IMHO

Don Goldberg (DAG) custom makes diopters from original Nikon ones & adapts them for M's - costs round $25 (recently purchased a +2 one)

Edited July 16, 2020 by romualdo