cl: wrong place, but i know you guys ;)

[gteague]

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if i find them too bothersome on recent panasonic cameras, i'd hardly ever use them on the cl where you have to go into a menu and then select the profile. then, in my case, i wouldn't remember the exact settings, thus the aforementioned index cards.

on the gh5 and the s1 it's as simple as twisting a top mode dial and bang, your profile is loaded. not only that, there's an overview or /info/ screen which you can go to with one button press or a couple of /disp/ presses and it shows every setting in that profile and you can simply touch the screen on a setting to change it. and i even find this too much trouble nearly all of the time. i do use these for video modes which are much trickier to set up, but i don't shoot much video. and the cl wouldn't have this video issue at all.

sometimes complexity can be simplicity. and vice versa. the simplicity of the interface is that the settings to change are logically grouped together and it doesn't take a lot of clicking and scrolling to reach them. thus, i can change 3-4 settings manually about as fast as recalling a profile and since i just changed them, i know which ones i changed. i do have a default profile though so if i change too much i can return easily. 

/guy

[lct]

59 minutes ago, gteague said:

i can change 3-4 settings manually about as fast as recalling a profile

Congratulations . 

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[nicci78]

9 hours ago, Joachim_I said:

But why? I don't get it. Of course, I use different apertures for macro and portrait. I change them using the aperture ring. I also may use different ISO numbers, I change them with the right wheel. What parameter needs to be fixed for a specific lens? I am not trying to convince anybody of my approach, I seriously want to learn what I am missing.

Actually macro shots need different profiles : faster shutter or tripod or flash. 
Portraits also need different one : outdoor or studio. 
Hence different shutter speed, aperture, auto ISO will be different, etc... 

No need to convinced anybody. Just lose half an hour to plan your best profiles. Then you will be always ready, at just a glance. 
Just put profile selection to FN button or to favourite menu. And voilà. It will be very easy to change. Without the worry to forget anything.

If still not happy with them. Forget it. But at least try them once, before dismissing them. 

[nicci78]

Have you notice that CL, S/S3, SL/SL2 bodies & TL/SL lenses are build around the idea of profiles. 
No engraved speed dial and no aperture ring, make sense when any profile can alter to taste any dials available. 
 

Profiles are a little bit less practical with Q/Q2 or M10 series. Because they have hard aperture ring and speed dial. Therefore you will not be able to recall automatically the desired speed nor aperture for each profile. 
 

In a sense, not using profile, means losing half the interest of Leica’s modern user interface. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by nicci78

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, gteague said:

if i find them too bothersome on recent panasonic cameras, i'd hardly ever use them on the cl where you have to go into a menu and then select the profile. then, in my case, i wouldn't remember the exact settings, thus the aforementioned index cards.

on the gh5 and the s1 it's as simple as twisting a top mode dial and bang, your profile is loaded. not only that, there's an overview or /info/ screen which you can go to with one button press or a couple of /disp/ presses and it shows every setting in that profile and you can simply touch the screen on a setting to change it. and i even find this too much trouble nearly all of the time. i do use these for video modes which are much trickier to set up, but i don't shoot much video. and the cl wouldn't have this video issue at all.

sometimes complexity can be simplicity. and vice versa. the simplicity of the interface is that the settings to change are logically grouped together and it doesn't take a lot of clicking and scrolling to reach them. thus, i can change 3-4 settings manually about as fast as recalling a profile and since i just changed them, i know which ones i changed. i do have a default profile though so if i change too much i can return easily. 

BTW, changing a profile on the CL is as simple as a couple of presses.

/guy

I don't just think, I'm convinced  now that you are missing the point.

Profiles are meant to avoid having to change groups of parameters and are individually chosen presets for photographic situations. You don't have to remember anything, just set the camera to the photographic use you are going to put it to by a couple of presses. (put them under the Fn button) That way you won't be one of those photographers who spend minutes staring at an LCD and playing the Marseillaise on the camera buttons whilst the opportunity passes.

As to grouping: You may have missed that the CL has a short menu with the main settings, including user profiles, and a main menu grouped by pages which are indicated on the top right hand side of the LCD. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

No engraved speed dial and no aperture ring, make sense when any profile can alter to taste any dials available.

Makes sense in no case to me but it's just me .

Edited June 8, 2020 by lct

[jaapv]

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The reason is that if they would engrave the shutter speed, for instance, on one dial and the user moves the function to another dial or changes the use (like the dial functions change when mounting the M adapter), the engravings make no sense any more.

[lct]

Makes sense but not the absence of aperture ring, at least to me.

[gteague]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

I don't just think, I'm convinced  now that you are missing the point.

Profiles are meant to avoid having to change groups of parameters and are individually chosen presets for photographic situations. You don't have to remember anything, just set the camera to the photographic use you are going to put it to by a couple of presses. (put them under the Fn button) That way you won't be one of those photographers who spend minutes staring at an LCD and playing the Marseillaise on the camera buttons whilst the opportunity passes.

As to grouping: You may have missed that the CL has a short menu with the main settings, including user profiles, and a main menu grouped by pages which are indicated on the top right hand side of the LCD. 

wouldn't be the first time mate! after all, i still don't grok the paradigm of either stills or video editors, but whatever they were thinking when they programmed those user interfaces, i'm not compatible with it.

as to using profiles for scenes, that's been around for 20 years now and nearly every digital camera has some version of it. in the newer panasonics there's even automatic scene detection or /IA/ mode. the software ai will attempt to figure out a dozen scenarios such as portrait landscape animal night sunset fireworks &c. unsure how much you can tweak these when you're in them as i've never used them (although i did play with some and it's amazing how many times it gets it right), but it might be possible. this would have to be the fastest way to switch to, say, portrait mode. in the animal mode it'll even set focus tracking for you. doesn't the cl have a version of this? a scene mode? i know i set mine up so i could switch to panorama easily.s

no, i haven't missed much i don't think. the cl is simplicity itself compared to my other cameras--i'll invite you over to set up an rx100 sometime! and i think you can sense how ocd i am about ease of control and thus i've gone through the manual backward and forwards over a half-dozen times setting up the function keys and the dials and the menu shortcuts.

/guy

[jaapv]

Panasonic  - sixteen buttons, half of them virtual on the LCD. Not my scene (p.i.), but I still have to use use them... and go into the setup menu to remember which is which 🤢.  Scene modes are not my thing - I never agree with the designer's choices.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Profiles don't help a poorly designed interface. I don't like the CL layout at all. It's a clumsy camera to use as most of the buttons are difficult to access with the camera to your eye. The left hand dial and the rear buttons are not user friendly. The four way controller is too small and fiddly to find on the fly. The touchscreen is turned off by many because simply holding the camera can set off the focus position to the top or bottom right of the screen. Leica had it right on the SL601 (except for the lack of aperture rings on lenses) but since then it seems design vanity has overtaken usability in Leica mirrorless cameras. If the TL2 allowed an EVF and flash at the same time my CL would be gone tomorrow. It's pretty. But not a great camera usability wise.

I too look at the Panasonic L mount cameras and see a bewildering set of buttons and menus that read like war and peace in length but in use the S1/S1R are vastly more usable than either the CL or SL2. Not all the buttons are in the correct spot (the play button mostly) but at least they allow you to put nearly any function anywhere you want it (including playback). And when you have it set up to your liking the buttons are accessible and easy to find with your eye to the viewfinder. Even my GX9 is much easier to actually use. It's not perfect but better than the CL. Much better. IQ isn't as good though.

Profiles are useful but they are a starting point not the final destination. I'd rather a camera with better layout than profiles. Even using the CL in Aperture or shutter priority is a PITA because the inner dial is difficult to get to. More so if you use a thumb rest. The four way controller should have been a joystick (the one from the SL, definitely not the one from the S). The buttons should be on the right (fixes multiple issues) and the dials moved to a front/rear design that we know works from almost every other camera on the market.

The CL has a lot going for it. Sensor and lenses are fabulous. It's got snappy operation and a great LCD and EVF. It's small and the grip works well (except for the lack of a door to access the battery). But no amount of menu diving profiles will make up for the poor button and dial placement.

Gordon

[jaapv]

Experiences differ, users differ. I have the camera set up that I hardly ever need to use a button when the camera is at my eye and have no difficulty reaching the wheels. They fall seamlessly under my fingers, the way I hold the camera.
I find the Panasonic layout a complete PITA and am always searching for the right button to push, or wheel to turn, as they are strewn haphazardly around the body - often missing them with the camera at my eye. Designed for an Octopus in my experience - Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[gteague]

lol! they sure are! with the s1 i can change or toggle 3-5 settings with the camera to my eye and unless you were watching closely, you'd never see me do it. that's because my right ring finger rests on the bw/color button, the right middle finger rests on the tele-conv button, and my right index finger is only a couple mm away from the shutter button to use the front dial which does exp-comp. the only other controls i use routinely are the rear dial (very rarely) for program shift, and the joystick to overlay display stuff. but the s1 is so huge that, unlike the cl, i don't have to poke myself in the right eye to use those controls.

i don't use touch screens on any camera, so the virtual /fn/ buttons are a total non-issue for me. i mean, there's like 3-4 dozen real buttons!

oh, and naturally i have to agree 100 with fgp on how easy the s1 is to use. the gh5 was the best up until it came along and spread out the buttons. but let's keep it relative. the cl basically replaced my rx100 as the shove it in any pocket and go camera and it's infinitely easier to use than the rx100. but good godz is the rx100 ungodly quality--it runs neck and neck with every camera i own up to and including the s1 in some situations. and i don't even have the 'good' 24-70 lens on mine--it's the new 24-200 i think. i always need the extra reach and rarely the speed.

/guy

Edited June 9, 2020 by gteague

[lct]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

I have the camera set up that I hardly ever need to use a button when the camera is at my eye and have no difficulty reaching the wheels. They fall seamlessly under my fingers, the way I hold the camera.

+1. I have the same feeling with other cameras allowing user profiles, though, including Sony's. Main difference is IMO the CL's better UI and simpler menus but it needs accessory grips to be used comfortably, at least by me. Now M owners are used to use the index finger for the shutter speed dial so they may feel more comfortable to handle the left wheel of the CL this way. Just a guess.

[jaapv]

Well, not born yet, I doubt it, but I will admit to being further along the technical road than you in photography.

[lct]

18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, not born yet, I doubt it, but I will admit to being further along the technical road than you in photography.

Haha! Been there my friend. Seen those things on my first DSLR 18 years ago. Photogs needing diagrams to take photographs. Still laughing. Why not a sculptor needing a 3D printer?

[jaapv]

36 minutes ago, lct said:

Haha! Been there my friend. Seen those things on my first DSLR 18 years ago. Photogs needing diagrams to take photographs. Still laughing. Why not a sculptor needing a 3D printer?

  Again, you are behind times...

 

 

[lct]

33 minutes ago, jaapv said:

  Again, you are behind times...

 

 

 Obvious sign of the times. Young sculptors don't think alike fortunately.

[LocalHero1953]

There's no camera out there that doesn't need an improvement to its user interface, but for most normal uses I find the CL OK, and it's my most used camera (cf SL, Sigma fp, Huawei P10).

- I have no trouble finding the direction arrows and button.
- I never use touch on any camera (I always try it, but find buttons, dials and joysticks quicker - the TL2 was acceptable, but not at the eye).
- I don't have a problem accessing both top dials at the eye with my thumb. I don't assign any secondary functions to the dials or Fn button - too confusing for my brain in the heat of shooting. I never use a thumb rest.
- I like my dials side by side, not front to back: I find remembering to turn left or right more intuitive - I often turn the wrong way on my SL (yes, I know, it's just my brain deficiencies!).
- I only set a profile once per shooting session, at the start, and adjust camera controls thereafter. 'Profiles' are on my Fn button if I want to reset.

As with all Leica cameras, I would prefer the 3 or 4 key buttons on the right, not the left, but the only one on the CL that irritates me in shooting is the Play button - occasionally I want a quick check of the last shot in the EVF, not on the LCD (yes, I know I can just keep my finger on the shutter button, but I occasionally forget).

And I have always thought it is one button short of a full complement - I would use it for back-button focusing.

The menu design could be improved - it takes too long to get through the pages. Sigma shows how it should be better with the fp. The TL2 touch menu was good, but too simple to be a model for more complicated interfaces.
 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by LocalHero1953

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[papimuzo]

Hi gentlemen, with due respect with your difficulties, here is my first camera ( I was 16). I had to adapt to a large number of user interfaces to arrive to the CL, through a lot of maker'families...😉

I have just to say that personally I find the CL easy to use, and profiles welcomed for that, age needing help!😋

All the best to your pict.

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