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gteague

cl: wrong place, but i know you guys ;)

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i know i haven't been posting much but that's because i'm shooting with my cl and the 50/2 i got for it. my pro photographer friend, seeing all the recent 50mm summicron images i was posting said: 'that lens will be glued to your new leica' and he's right. i took it off for a couple days to shoot it on my panny s1 where it worked just as well, but i was pleased at how well the cl apc held up against a full frame using the same lens.

my fear before buying a couple of /m/ lenses (i also have a 75/2.4) was that i wouldn't be able to focus a manual lens due to my horrible eyesight. but the peaking works a treat on the cl (a little better on the s1 though as you can customize it more) and i rarely miss focus even shooting wide open.

so that's the backstory. but now i've got the itch for an actual /m/ camera and i found it hard to believe the number of digital models leica has put out in the last decade or so. i've narrowed it down to the M240 which seems to have a rangefinder (which i can't use because of astigmatism and peaking) and i'd really prefer the silver one. sort of hard to find many of them--the online leica store doesn't have any used ones. they seem to go for about $5500 new and i've seen some new ones for $4500 or so (4save?). but i want to spend less than $3500 and get one at least exc or exc+ and even 3-4 refurbished ones and like new ones in that price range are on ebay and i'm watching them. i even found an australian store on ebay (which is selling an international model for about $3850 (thenewcamerahouse) but although they seem to have been on ebay a long time, they only have about 150 ratings so i'm pinging them with an email.

anyone have any hot tips or info for me? i'm sorry if this can't be discussed here but i looked all over the site and the classified section seems a wasteland.

tks, /guy

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Aloha, I understand how you feel, price wise all used M's are all relatively expensive, plus of course once you have attained an M you want to upgrade & that again becomes expensive.. Why not Rent an M - Personally I would only buy from a Leica dealer in the country in which I reside...L

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Don't buy any M  camera, they are rangefinder cameras and need decent eyesight to get focus. Not to mention that there is a learning curve to using a rangefinder.
It is true that the M240 has an accessory EVF, but, albeit acceptably usable in 2012 it is no more than that and it is hopelessly out of date by now.
The M10 EVF is better, but it still cannot compare to the CL, SL(2) or Q(2)
Anyhow, it is silly to buy a tool if you will struggle to use the essential feature.

Your plan is bound to end in disappointment IMO, despite the fact that M cameras are amongst the most desirable ones there are..

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tks, but no interest in renting. i forgot to mention that 3 trusted sources, keh, adorama, and b&h have none. amazon have a handful, but through 3rd party sellers and amazon sometimes won't back you up with those.

i've got too much invested in cameras already, so no interest in spending up to $6k on one although i guess i could sell the cl to help finance it, but the prices just dropped on that model due to the rumors of its demise i guess. :)

/guy

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Do you realize that there are NO focus aids like peaking, that the dioptre adjustment is by a fixed screw-in lens and has to be determined for your specific case and that it is nigh-impossible to focus with insufficiently corrected astigmatism?

The advice to rent is sound. It is more than doubtful that you will be able to focus the camera.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Don't buy any M  camera, they are rangefinder cameras and need decent eyesight to get focus. Not to mention that there is a learning curve to using a rangefinder.
It is true that the M240 has an accessory EVF, but, albeit acceptably usable in 2012 it is no more than that and it is hopelessly out of date by now.
The M10 EVF is better, but it still cannot compare to the CL, SL(2) or Q(2)
Anyhow, it is silly to buy a tool if you will struggle to use the essential feature.

Your plan is bound to end in disappointment IMO, despite the fact that M cameras are amongst the most desirable ones there are..

warning noted. wouldn't be the first time i ignored the red flags!

as to eyesight and focusing, i've been reading the docs and noted that there doesn't seem to be  an adjustable diopter for the evf (viewfinder), just replaceable panels like the old leicas. usually the first thing i have to do is crank the diopter all the way up or down.

but you said 'accessory evf' and the manual says it has in-built peaking and it has to have a viewfinder if it's a rf camera. i have cameras which don't have an evf or a viewfinder and i can live with just using an lcd.

and yes, i know i can't use a rf (not because i haven't had years of practice--my very first new camera was a rf and i used it for 5-6 years) which is why this is the only one i'm considering. 

so i'm confused, does the peaking not work via the lcd? can't i just ignore the viewfinder of the evf?

/guy

Edited by gteague

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Why do you want to buy a rangefinder camera if, as you say, you can’t use the rangefinder to focus? 

Do you intend to use an accessory EVF permanently? If so, it defeats the purpose of a rangefinder, and is only available on M240 and newer M digital cameras, for which you do not have budget.

Seems you should just stick to the CL. An M digital camera is not for you. 

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The EVF on the M240 was OK in its time, although it was heavily critiqued back then already, but by present standards it is a sorry affair. The LCD is also not up to the standard of newer cameras. The focus peaking on LCD and EVF is tweaked for long lenses and macro and often is all but invisible with mid-range and shorter focal lengths. Really, the only rationale for buying an M is the rangefinder viewfinder, and as such it is superb. But if you are not planning to use it, you are buying a cupboard ornament.

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first fast pass through the manual. it does indeed say that you can use /live view/ on the lcd with magnification and peaking tools. the drawback to being limited to the lcd is that it's pretty hard to see it in the daytime in west texas summer, but i've managed it with other cameras such as the rx100 which has a near useless evf.

i noted one thing: that the close up doesn't work on the 50mm summicron.

/guy

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5 minutes ago, gteague said:

first fast pass through the manual. it does indeed say that you can use /live view/ on the lcd with magnification and peaking tools. the drawback to being limited to the lcd is that it's pretty hard to see it in the daytime in west texas summer, but i've managed it with other cameras such as the rx100 which has a near useless evf.

i noted one thing: that the close up doesn't work on the 50mm summicron.

/guy

Yes, you can use it. The RX100 EVF is far better than the one on the M240. Peaking is often invisible on the M240 LCD with low-contrast subjects on  lenses from 75 mm and wider.

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Posted (edited)

i got most of my initial impressions from reading a quite lengthy review at the phoblogapher from 2013. here's some snippets::

Live-view with focus peaking and video mode are great additions to the M rangefinder
The outdated electronic viewfinder doesn’t go along with the camera’s otherwise premium appearance
Just as it has always been, there’s no built-in diopter compensation. Instead, screw-in diopters are available for the M. 
huge LCD screen (which is great, btw
The dedicated CMOS sensor makes as good use of Leica’s M-mount lenses as is currently possible, and delivers stunning images with lots of fine detail, superb clarity and amazing colors. In fact, the images have an almost film-like look to it thanks to the great dynamic range of the sensor.
Without the shadow of a doubt one can say that the M Typ 240 is the pinnacle of Leica’s rangefinder camera evolution, and most certainly one of the best digital cameras currently around.

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/10/30/review-leica-m-typ-240/\

/guy

Edited by gteague

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A review is just a review. I get my information from shooting about 30.000 images with it.

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Posted (edited)

so is the m240 the only m camera with full frame and focus peaking? i can't see getting another apc sensor when i have the cl but one of the attractions of an /m/ camera is that the cl is so small i have handling problem exacerbated by having to use my left eye meaning i poke myself in the face to get to the back controls. i love the high tech of the rx100, but i only take it out when it's impossible to take a larger camera as it will fit in my front shorts pocket.

Edited by gteague

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All in All it's probably a build up of GAS & the need to communicate during the Covid19 Lockdown.. Buy a new M10, use it then return it.. L

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Posted (edited)

i already have the most part of an sl2, the panny s1. and yes, i know i can use my /m/ lenses on it with the adapter and have full frame images. so yes, given all that, it does seem sort of foolish, but i thought i'd finally found an /m/ camera i could actually use despite the rangefinder issues.

i obviously needed more reviews, but despite being a good googler, i didn't find many that weren't just press releases. 

/guy

Edited by gteague

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You might be able to use it with some effort -probably quite a bit of effort-, but it won't be enjoyable. The same goes for the M10, I fear, although the EVF is slightly better.

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7 minutes ago, gteague said:

the cl is so small i have handling problem exacerbated by having to use my left eye meaning i poke myself in the face to get to the back controls. 

Getting the handgrip will help a lot with the size, and you can easily set it up that you can control it completely by the top wheels. at least if you use the original Leica M adapter.

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oh, if you remember i went through cases and grips and thumb studs before finally settling on the thumbs up and a half case with an inbuilt grip. and the right control wheel is fine but my right eye is planted on top of the left control wheel and my right cheek is pressed up against the back controller and my nose is leaving a greasy spot dead center on the lcd. but i rarely complain anymore--no camera in 55 years has to my knowledge was designed for a left-eyed shooter although some are better than other.

found 7 reviews. i'll be back after reading them. 

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Try operating the left wheel with your index finger instead of your thumb.

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Posted (edited)

oh, i do, i assure you! but you have to crook your finger awkwardly to get around the shutter button unless you try holding your finger well above it and that's an awkward angle to approach from. usually i'll have to take my eye away from the evf and if i do, might as well turn igt from the rear as, used from the front of the camera, the dial works in reverse to what you expect. the problem is that you can't assign exp comp to the right dial in manual mode and i use that on nearly every shot. other than that i rarely use the left dial at all and not when i'm actively shooting.

btw, so far one old time leica guy has hated the 240, but steve huff, in a novel-length review, can't praise every aspect of it enough although he does complain about the evf lag. but when has huff ever panned a review camera? he's much like a more articulate ken rockwell clone. :)

/guy

Edited by gteague

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