M10 and Super Fast Lenses

[richfx]

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After replacing my M9 with an M10 and seeing how much better it is at high ISO shooting, I wonder whether the need for Summilux lenses in low light (no flash) situations still exists.
I found that 800 ISO was the upper limit for good IQ with the M9, but the M10 produces excellent IQ at ten times that setting. Since the Summilux lenses (35 and 50, specifically) are noticeably heavier and bigger than the Summicrons, what is the benefit of them now other than bokeh when wide open, which the 50 Lux (but not the 35 as much) excels at?
 

Edited June 3, 2020 by rcerick

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[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, rcerick said:

After replacing my M9 with an M10 and seeing how much better it is at high ISO shooting, I wonder whether the need for Summilux lenses in low light (no flash) situations still exists.
I found that 800 ISO was the upper limit for good IQ with the M9, but the M10 produces excellent IQ at ten times that setting. Since the Summilux lenses (35 and 50, specifically) are noticeably heavier and bigger than the Summicrons, what is the benefit of them now other than bokeh when wide open, which the 50 Lux (but not the 35 as much) excels at?
 

Maybe you decide to buy a film M? Otherwise you have all of the answers already. 

[UliWer]

I fear to tell you something which you already knew long before:

Large opened lenses are not only good to let in more light. They also reduce the depth of focus considerably. Some people in the Leica world use the shallow depth of focus for the design of their photos. It looks different, when only the main motiv is sharp but the surroundings look blurry.

[richfx]

7 hours ago, UliWer said:

I fear to tell you something which you already knew long before:

Large opened lenses are not only good to let in more light. They also reduce the depth of focus considerably. Some people in the Leica world use the shallow depth of focus for the design of their photos. It looks different, when only the main motiv is sharp but the surroundings look blurry.

Thank you, Uli. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned bokeh -  the very thin DOF the Summilux can achieve wide open.

[T25UFO]

The 50mm Summilux renders beautifully at all apertures, it's better than the basic 50mm Summicron.  In fact, in the last Red Dot Forum video, Josh remarked that the 50mm Summarit clearly out performed the basic Summicron, which is now quite an old design.  Of course, the APO is the way to go if you want a Summicron - it's the benchmark, and also has a benchmark price!

By Leica price standards, the black chrome retro Summilux is good value; a limited edition and only a small premium over the regular lens.  The form and function of this lens is fantastic.

[farnz]

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21 hours ago, rcerick said:

Thank you, Uli. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned bokeh -  the very thin DOF the Summilux can achieve wide open.

Uli was talking about thin depth of field, not bokeh.  In other words the ability to separate a specific subject from the background rather than the appeal of the out of focus background.

Pete.

[Dennis]

The M10 becomes, more or less, ISO invariant at 800 ISO. Studying practicing with the camera, I know now that my next preferred stop, after 800 is straight to 3,200 ISO (because of the ISO less thing). At this value, the M10 has a little amount of noise, and you can also underexpose a few stops and compensate in the post, to keep a better dynamic range.

@f/2, with a Summicron, you are ok with most low light situations. You don't need a Summilux, at least you like the look and signature wide open. IMO nowadays, to own a 1.4 lens is more for the desire or need to have a swallow DOP ( which is personal) rather than a need because of the low light.
As Pete was saying, it's more about separating the subject from the background. And @f/2, you can do whatever you want. 

 

 

[frame-it]

On 6/4/2020 at 12:02 AM, rcerick said:

 Since the Summilux lenses (35 and 50, specifically) are noticeably heavier and bigger than the Summicrons, what is the benefit of them now other than bokeh when wide open, which the 50 Lux (but not the 35 as much) excels at?
 

do u shoot in the street [no flash or tripod] in low available light at night ? if not you're fine with f2 or higher.

[richfx]

18 hours ago, frame-it said:

do u shoot in the street [no flash or tripod] in low available light at night ? if not you're fine with f2 or higher.

I do and the Crons (35 and 50) acquit themselves extremely well in low light street shooting. 

[richfx]

20 hours ago, farnz said:

Uli was talking about thin depth of field, not bokeh.  In other words the ability to separate a specific subject from the background rather than the appeal of the out of focus background.

Pete.

Yes, thanks. I used bokeh but meant thin DOF (with accompanying bokeh) with the Lux f/1.4 vs the f/2 Cron aperture.

[Dennis]

2 minutes ago, rcerick said:

I do and the Crons (35 and 50) acquit themselves extremely well in low light street shooting. 

Exactly. IMO, with the performances of modern camera, If you buy a Summilux it's because you want it, no because you need. Just saying

[evikne]

On 6/3/2020 at 5:02 PM, rcerick said:

I found that 800 ISO was the upper limit for good IQ with the M9, but the M10 produces excellent IQ at ten times that setting. Since the Summilux lenses (35 and 50, specifically) are noticeably heavier and bigger than the Summicrons, what is the benefit of them now other than bokeh when wide open, which the 50 Lux (but not the 35 as much) excels at?

As Peter Karbe says: "Aperture is for depth of field, not light control." In other words: If you don't want blurry backgrounds, you don't need a Summilux (not to mention a Noctilux). 

[M11 for me]

I was in several situations with my 21mm Super Elmar and it was night. Oh my good I forgot my Summilux. No problem so far. But note. When I say it is night it does not mean that there is NO light. There is always some light: Street ilumination or the light through windows. In no light you should not try to make photographs.

Edited June 5, 2020 by M10 for me
Grammar correction (I hope)

[M11 for me]

Just recently I bought a Summarit because I did not want the heavy weight of the 50mm Lux. Then I went into a dark cathedral with my M10. Wonderful results.

Edited June 5, 2020 by M10 for me
Grammar correction (I hope)

[M11 for me]

Have a look at the Noctilux images in this forum. Many of them are blured. I never considered buying such a silly lens for my M10. Today for me a Summicron, Summarit or Elmarit (or Super-Elmar /Elmar) is the Standard. Why did you go for M10? I believe its for weight. So stick with it and reduce that weight. 

[Mikep996]

I wouldn't call it a "silly" lens though I agree that it seems that quite a lot of Noct images lack sharpness at the focus point.  

It is the ONLY lens I did not want to "re-buy" when I came back to Leica recently after quite a few years.  I used the Noct extensively in my film days because of its speed but the M10 doesn't need the speed.  Certainly, the Noct's ability to isolate is superb but that was not a major factor for me so it's very much a shooting style thing as far as that's concerned.  I never did like its size/weight but used it because it was the only lens that could deliver the low-light performance that I needed with Velvia and TriX.  But for me the ISO capability of the M10 makes the Summicron plenty fast enough in that focal length.

 

[Gobert]

@M10 for me
 

The Noct 0.95 is a lens without compromises. For some -including myself- it is the holy grale, others disguise it.

But whatsoever, don’t call it a silly lens. Each quality lens has its user group.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Gobert

[jdlaing]

Grail.

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[M11 for me]

Am 6.6.2020 um 21:28 schrieb Gobert:

@M10 for me

But whatsoever, don’t call it a silly lens. Each quality lens has its user group.

You are right and I am sorry. If I had one I would certainly look at it every day. Maybe its definitely a holy grail: The ultimative the most extreme. I just wanted to express that I would not suggest such a lens unless a user knows what to buy it for. Hope that is fine for you.

I would whish to see more sharp Noctilux images though 🙀

Edited June 8, 2020 by M10 for me
grail not grale. Thx gdlaing